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Topic: [Mafia] Donner Party #1 |
573 replies
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Quote Vlado Rosić-Milinković (Group Amateur - 5) Posts: 880
Ate Ate Oh! Coincidence? I think not.
##unvote Jimmy ##vote Vlado
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This means that the Cannibal Serial Killer can easily fake claim Vigilante and the Goons can easily fake claim Weaponsmith or Roleblocker if they have killed that role before. So beware of liars :)
This game system seems challenging.
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Quote ( Daryl Gee @ August 5th 2012,12:48:07 ) Ate Ate Oh! Coincidence? I think not.
brilliant :D
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Quote ( Kristīna Vilciņš @ August 5th 2012,12:59:47 ) This means that the Cannibal Serial Killer can easily fake claim Vigilante and the Goons can easily fake claim Weaponsmith or Roleblocker if they have killed that role before.
Why can't the serial killer fake claim weaponsmith/roleblocker, or one of the goons fake claim vigilante?
Why did you ignore those possibilities? Or am I missing something here?
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No, they can. My mind was still in the other game where I was a Tracker. As a Tracker, following my target to a dead person and my target claiming Roleblocker would have been odd (but possible, in that particular setup :p)
In this setup there are no investigation roles, so everyone can claim what they want.
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Quote ( Kristīna Vilciņš @ August 5th 2012,13:41:04 ) In this setup there are no investigation roles, so everyone can claim what they want.
The dietician is essentially an investigation role. A result of No Cannibal / Cannibal does at least give a result. Why do you ignore that role?
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Quote ( Sean Armstrong @ August 5th 2012,13:45:25 ) Why do you ignore that role?
I don't. In my example, I assume that the Cannibals killed the Gunsmith / Dietician to avoid a counter claim. But you are right, it is an investigation role, different from Trackers & Watchers though.
Why would I ignore anything related to the game setup?
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Quote ( Daryl Gee @ August 5th 2012,12:48:07 ) Ate Ate Oh! Coincidence? I think not.
Just when it got serious.
##Unvote Michael ##Vote Daryl
You got to be kidding me!
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Only the Roleblocker and the Dietician would have to claim if forced to, IMO. And the Vig shouldn't kill unless he is certain! A Dietician positive on one of the Cannibals that isn't the Vig = Bingo. But how to check if the Dietician is genuine? If the Vig blindly believes that claim and the result and kills the Dietician's positive target, we will never know.
Another headache coming. This + Matthew & Vlado in the game = Suicide. Oh wait, Jimmy is on the sidelines! It's fine then! :D
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It's a bit of a strange setup, this one. I think we'll actually learn a lot more from lynches in this setup than we usually would, especially if we lynch a cannibal (even the vigilante).
Therefore, there's a limited amount we can discuss until the first lynch and the first set of night actions, and as always our day 1 lynch will be a little bit random.
It's my opinion that we should lynch the least active person in day 1, unless someone else comes across as obviously scummy. People who say nothing are always hardest to read, in my opinion, so inactive/lurking people are always my first choice to be lynched when there is no clear alternative.
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Quote ( Thomas Wesker @ August 5th 2012,14:56:11 ) This + Matthew & Vlado in the game = Suicide.
Hey it's my second game, don't blame me :d
By my understanding of the setup, there can actually be 3 deaths during the night, goon kill, vig kill and SK kill?
As stated, vig kill will be a rarity in the start, I assume, until there's certain or preferable scum so Roleblocker will be effective against GOON/SK, which will be very important to keep alive. I guess the same goes for the Dietician, which again can be fooled by vig for scum.
What I see as a major problem is that SK has 1 shot NK immunity and 1 shot roleblock immunity, if I'm not wrong, so he's real threat. Should that be primary target? If vig/goon aims for sk, and it's first shot, they get response as unsuccessful action or something like that?
Which can either imply they've been roleblocked or shot at SK.
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Quote ( Vlado Rosić-Milinković @ August 5th 2012,15:15:59 ) What I see as a major problem is that SK has 1 shot NK immunity and 1 shot roleblock immunity, if I'm not wrong, so he's real threat. Should that be primary target?
How do you aim to find the Serial Killer? If you are relying on the Vigilante to miss his kill, it's asking too much. He shouldn't be shooting, unless like Thomas said the Gunsmith found another Cannibal. And if you are asking for a Goon to reveal who the Serial Killer is, it is a joke. Or is that what you mean by "Primary Target". Were you asking your partner? :p
Quote ( Vlado Rosić-Milinković @ August 5th 2012,15:15:59 ) If vig/goon aims for sk, and it's first shot, they get response as unsuccessful action or something like that?
I am not sure but I don't think so. Or it would be easy to find the Serial Killer.
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Quote ( Kristīna Vilciņš @ August 5th 2012,15:24:13 ) I am not sure but I don't think so. Or it would be easy to find the Serial Killer.
They can also be roleblocked, you forgot.
As Matthew mentioned, if we get to lynch a cannibal goon, that would help us tremendously, even one exact role would turn tides against scum.
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Quote ( Kristīna Vilciņš @ August 5th 2012,15:24:13 ) I am not sure but I don't think so. Or it would be easy to find the Serial Killer.
I think it is a case of the vig would be told "Kill was unsuccessful". The only way that the vig could be certain was if the roleblocker had claimed or was announced dead (by lynch or cannibal lynch who had killed the RB).
Otherwise it could be say the dietician who had been attempted to be eaten by the vig but the RB had blocked the vig.
Got to be quite careful there are a lot of nuances in the setup that could lead to rushed decisions having the potential to cause a lot of harm if not every possibility is thought through.
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Quote ( Vlado Rosić-Milinković @ August 5th 2012,15:28:43 ) They can also be roleblocked, you forgot.
Yes, and the Vigilante can also be blocked. But I doubt the Roleblocker would receive a 'No Result' because there is only one Roleblocker in this setup. It would be obvious who the Serial Killer is to the Roleblocker.
Quote ( Vlado Rosić-Milinković @ August 5th 2012,15:28:43 ) As Matthew mentioned, if we get to lynch a cannibal goon, that would help us tremendously, even one exact role would turn tides against scum.
There are two Goons. If only one of them kills and we lynch the other one, we would gain no information. Or are they linked? I doubt so too.
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Quote ( Kristīna Vilciņš @ August 5th 2012,15:35:28 ) It would be obvious who the Serial Killer is to the Roleblocker.
And to me, this is the only time our Roleblocker really should claim. Its the biggest weakness of the SK (Dietician still can catch it but the RB is the only certain way of the SK being the SK, a cannibal result can mean Goon, Goon, SK or Vig, one of which is town aligned)
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Quote ( Kristīna Vilciņš @ August 5th 2012,15:24:13 ) If you are relying on the Vigilante to miss his kill, it's asking too much. He shouldn't be shooting, unless like Thomas said the Gunsmith found another Cannibal.
If the gunsmith finds a cannibal, why wait for the vigilante to kill him? Why not just lynch the cannibal? Personally, I can't see a situation where the vigilante's ability is of any use to town.
In which case, the vigilante is effectively a vanilla town, but with a "miller" variation just to cause additional confusion.
Quote ( Vlado Rosić-Milinković @ August 5th 2012,15:15:59 ) If vig/goon aims for sk, and it's first shot, they get response as unsuccessful action or something like that?
Quite clearly, if either the vig or the goons attempt to kill someone and that person doesn't die, they know that either they were roleblocked, or that their target is the SK. I suspect that they would not be told which of those was the actual reason for the failed kill.
Quote ( Kristīna Vilciņš @ August 5th 2012,15:35:28 ) There are two Goons. If only one of them kills and we lynch the other one, we would gain no information. Or are they linked? I doubt so too.
Interesting point, I don't know about that.
Quote ( Kristīna Vilciņš @ August 5th 2012,15:35:28 ) But I doubt the Roleblocker would receive a 'No Result' because there is only one Roleblocker in this setup. It would be obvious who the Serial Killer is to the Roleblocker.
I doubt that the roleblocker gets any "feedback" on his night actions (it's standard for there to be no feedback from that role), so he won't know whether his block was successful or not.
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Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,15:53:39 ) In which case, the vigilante is effectively a vanilla town, but with a "miller" variation just to cause additional confusion.
But we can't expect the Vigilante to claim right now, do we? A miller usually claims on the first day and often gets lynched following his claim, or when it's LYLO.
4 Cannibals. The Gunsmith has 3/4 chances to catch the Goons or the Serial Killer. Not that bad I think. Let's be positive about it for a minute. :)
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Quote ( Kristīna Vilciņš @ August 5th 2012,16:10:03 ) But we can't expect the Vigilante to claim right now, do we?
Of course not. But of the three town "power roles" the vigilante is the one that is the least useful in my opinion.
At least while the vigilante is alive, no one can fake claim it. If the vig role is fake claimed, the real vig can simply kill the fake claimer that night without needing to counter claim and out himself.
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Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,16:23:48 ) At least while the vigilante is alive, no one can fake claim it. If the vig role is fake claimed, the real vig can simply kill the fake claimer that night without needing to counter claim and out himself.
Yes but I don't see that happening. And if the Vigilante gets killed, the Mafia or Serial Killer can fake claim the role. Not that it would be smart to fake claim such a role, but it is a possibility.
Gunsmith is the most dangerous fake claim. Unless the Gunsmith agrees to claim after X nights with all his results and be lynched. But it is situational.
The Roleblocker is different. It could agree to do the same too but with 3 killing roles, the Mafia or the Serial Killer have the luxury to send a 'no kill'. Therefore, the Roleblocker's results might be unreliable.
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Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,15:11:08 ) Therefore, there's a limited amount we can discuss until the first lynch and the first set of night actions, and as always our day 1 lynch will be a little bit random.
After thinking about this statement, it comes across as a subtle way of saying "I don't want to be discussing anything right now." Yes the D1 lynch is going to be somewhat random and we don't have any hard facts to go by, but at this point, wouldn't town want to be trying to narrow down their choices so that they have a better chance to catch scum on the random lynch (2/12 is not nearly as good of a chance as 2/8 or 2/9 if 3 or 4 players are "cleared")? The only way we can go about this "elimination" is to discuss stuff that's being posted. Care to explain?
Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,16:23:48 ) At least while the vigilante is alive, no one can fake claim it.
So you could fake claim vig when the real vig is dead. ;)
Also, on the basis of fake claims, isn't it a bit early to start hypothesizing about how to go about fake claiming. Have something to hide Kristina and Matthew?
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Quote ( Eric Rohli @ August 5th 2012,18:43:06 ) So you could fake claim vig when the real vig is dead. ;)
Was this meant as sarchasm? 'cos if the vig is killed by a cannibal then the vigs role would only be known by that cannibal, thus it would be an easy fake claim.
Quote ( Eric Rohli @ August 5th 2012,18:43:06 ) wouldn't town want to be trying to narrow down their choices so that they have a better chance to catch scum on the random lynch (2/12 is not nearly as good of a chance as 2/8 or 2/9 if 3 or 4 players are "cleared")?
To clarify...There is 3 scum, not 2. 2 cannibal mafia & 1 cannibal SK.
Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,15:11:08 ) It's my opinion that we should lynch the least active person in day 1, unless someone else comes across as obviously scummy.
I actually find this a decent suggestion. The worst it does it get everyone talking as much as possible.
Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,15:11:08 ) I think we'll actually learn a lot more from lynches in this setup than we usually would, especially if we lynch a cannibal (even the vigilante). Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,15:53:39 ) If the gunsmith finds a cannibal, why wait for the vigilante to kill him? Why not just lynch the cannibal? Personally, I can't see a situation where the vigilante's ability is of any use to town.
In which case, the vigilante is effectively a vanilla town, but with a "miller" variation just to cause additional confusion.
Why do you say we would learn a lot from lynching the vig, then go on to say the vig's role is useless and effecively suggest it shouldnt be used and effectively the vig is treated as vanilla in this game? Its a contradiction, because if the vig isnt performing any kills, then theres no info to be learnt from their lynch!
fwiw...i agree that lynches are the best way for town to gain information in this game, thus like the penetentiary game its in towns best interest to keep kills to a minimum, unless an obv scum is spotted and we have a cleared vig.
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Quote ( Eric Rohli @ August 5th 2012,18:43:06 ) wouldn't town want to be trying to narrow down their choices so that they have a better chance to catch scum on the random lynch
To comment on this bit specifically, how exactly would you suggest town should try to find scum on day 1?
With larger scum groups in larger games, there is always the possibility that voting patterns or interactions between members could give away the fact that they are buddies together. In this game we have a very small scum group, and although it is still possible that their interactions with each other could give away their alignment, the chances of this happening on day 1 are very low in my opinion.
And how would we find the SK on day 1? I haven't got a clue.
Based on other games I've played, scum will try to hide in the background on day 1, and wait for someone else to make a stupid comment that gets them lynched. Getting a decent level of activity in the thread makes lurkers or non-content posters stand out more, and those are the kind of people we should be lynching on day 1.
Quote ( Eric Rohli @ August 5th 2012,18:43:06 ) isn't it a bit early to start hypothesizing about how to go about fake claiming.
Discussion on game setup and possible game scenarios is a natural way to bring the game out of the joke phase. I fail to see how a long joke phase benefits town, and I'm happy for you to suggest another game relevant topic to discuss at this stage.
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Quote ( Neil Barron @ August 5th 2012,19:13:03 ) Why do you say we would learn a lot from lynching the vig, then go on to say the vig's role is useless and effecively suggest it shouldnt be used and effectively the vig is treated as vanilla in this game? Its a contradiction, because if the vig isnt performing any kills, then theres no info to be learnt from their lynch!
That's a fair point. It would assume that the cannibal had been using its killing abilities. Anyway, I wasn't suggesting that we should aim to lynch the vig, just that the vig is the town power role that I would be most willing to sacrifice if it was needed.
Quote ( Neil Barron @ August 5th 2012,19:13:03 ) fwiw...i agree that lynches are the best way for town to gain information in this game, thus like the penetentiary game its in towns best interest to keep kills to a minimum, unless an obv scum is spotted and we have a cleared vig.
I still don't agree with the vig killing "obvscum". As I said earlier, if an obvscum appears we should lynch them.
What happens if we leave an obvscum for the vig to take care of, and the vig is killed in the same night? We wont get confirmation of the scumminess of the vigs target, because (i) the vig wont be alive the next day to tell us and (ii) whoever killed the vig would take all of the vigs dead bodies and therefore would be in possession of more information than town.
I'll say it again. Obvscum should be lynched. The more information that can be gained for town without anyone needing to claim, the better. And lynching (with the subsequent reveal of the lynchees stored bodies) is the best way to do this.
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Quote ( Thomas Wesker @ August 5th 2012,14:49:40 ) Just when it got serious. Quote ( Thomas Wesker @ August 5th 2012,14:56:11 ) Oh wait, Jimmy is on the sidelines! It's fine then! :D Exactly one post after voting me for joking after the game got, apparently, serious, you (gasp) make a joke.
A) You're a great big flaming hypocrite. B) The game hasn't got serious yet. (And it really really hadn't when I made my joke). All it is, is a "who can post the greatest amount of speculative masturbation" competition.
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Quote ( Neil Barron @ August 5th 2012,19:13:03 ) Was this meant as sarchasm?'cos if the vig is killed by a cannibal then the vigs role would only be known by that cannibal, thus it would be an easy fake claim.
It was sarcasm. I did forget, though, that the cannibal rule was in effect. I'm still thinking this is a normal game.
Quote ( Neil Barron @ August 5th 2012,19:13:03 ) To clarify...There is 3 scum, not 2.
Agree. Didn't know what I was thinking there.
Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,19:13:43 ) To comment on this bit specifically, how exactly would you suggest town should try to find scum on day 1?
First, let me say that there is (almost) no way you can 100% guarantee a scum lynch on D1 (think back to Davi in KP's last modded game) nor a foolproof method of finding scum on D1. However, through enough active discussion on D1, I feel as if some players could be "cleared" for the time being (and I say that with things possibly changing as the game progresses). As "townies" are "cleared", the number of potential mislynches drops, increasing the chance of lynching scum. The downside is that scum can pass as town by following this method.
If I recall correctly, the JK9++ game that just ended had little activity on D1 and it came down to a random lynch (granted, scum was lynched). I don't want this game to follow that patch (well, at least the first part; I wouldn't mind lynching scum). I'd rather have it down to an educated guess. Thus, I don't know how much I would suggest lynching the most inactive person (unless we come down to a similar situation as the JK game)
Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,19:13:43 ) And how would we find the SK on day 1? I haven't got a clue
The WIFOM answer is to look at general posting patterns and narrow it down based on what we see. I would think that the SK would be somebody who comes across as sort of scummy (enough to not earn a night kill) and is relatively active (since you suggested lynching the most inactive player). Otherwise, I think we have to stick with the method I suggested in response to your earlier question.
Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,19:13:43 ) Discussion on game setup and possible game scenarios is a natural way to bring the game out of the joke phase. I fail to see how a long joke phase benefits town, and I'm happy for you to suggest another game relevant topic to discuss at this stage.
I agree with discussing the setup of the game, though I feel as if this game has a pretty black-and-white setup. Short-term game scenarios are fine (and I'm up for discussion on the vig kill issue since that has big implications on the early part of this game). It just seems strange that you two are discussing which roles somebody can get away with fakeclaiming. It almost seems like you're trying to see what you can get away with. An early (and extremely uneducated) guess is that one of you is SK and one of you is mafia since you haven't taken to the QT. And yes, though the joke phase is fun, I don't see the benefit of a long one.
As for the vig kill, I'm not really in favor or against it right now. I know that if the kill is used, we could potentially be down to 1 enemy for the rest of the game. At the same time, if the kill is used and the vig hits a townie (and town is lynched), we could be looking at 4 townie deaths and a 2 v 1 v 5 scenario. Not using the kill is certainly the more conservative option, but the game situation may not be much better than the worse-case of using the vig kill (2 v 1 v 6). I don't think we'll be looking at a no-kill from either scum or the SK as I think that they will be trying to make the game as short as possible.
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Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,19:26:45 ) That's a fair point. It would assume that the cannibal had been using its killing abilities. Anyway, I wasn't suggesting that we should aim to lynch the vig, just that the vig is the town power role that I would be most willing to sacrifice if it was needed.
Well IMO it is needed, and needed today.
RBer & Dietician are both strong town PR's. The last thing we want is for these roles to be wasted on targeting the vig. Having a cleared town is massive in making sure these PR's targets are not wasted. The vig shouldnt be killing anyone, it makes no sense and just plays massively into scums hands when the target is townie. Lynching a vig who doesnt kill provides zero info, other than a wasted lynch. The vig is best left for scum to kill as and when they want to. Its one kill that town don't mind eating (pun intended).
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So you're suggesting that the vig should claim today?
I can see some logic to that, if we're agreed that the vig shouldn't use his ability. It would stop any fake vig claims later in the game, and would mean that any dietician "positive" result would definately be a scum.
The main downside to that is it increases the likelihood of scum hitting the dietician at night. I'm sure that the dietician is the primary target for both the goons and the SK, and the vig claiming would reduce the number of "unknowns" by one, thus slightly increasing the chance of the dietician being hit by a NK.
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Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,15:11:08 ) It's my opinion that we should lynch the least active person in day 1, unless someone else comes across as obviously scummy. People who say nothing are always hardest to read, in my opinion, so inactive/lurking people are always my first choice to be lynched when there is no clear alternative.
What is to be gained from people being inactive or lurking, if they end up flipping Town though? That's always the annoying thing with lurkers (Oh the irony), if they end up flipping Town you end up having pretty much no new information on Day 2. Especially in a game like this, where information is being withheld!
Quote ( Kristīna Vilciņš @ August 5th 2012,15:35:28 ) Yes, and the Vigilante can also be blocked. But I doubt the Roleblocker would receive a 'No Result' because there is only one Roleblocker in this setup. It would be obvious who the Serial Killer is to the Roleblocker.
I have not yet seen a roleblocker who gets any information about his night action, whether it failed or not.
Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,19:13:43 ) Based on other games I've played, scum will try to hide in the background on day 1, and wait for someone else to make a stupid comment that gets them lynched. Getting a decent level of activity in the thread makes lurkers or non-content posters stand out more, and those are the kind of people we should be lynching on day 1.
I played five games since I decided to return to mafia playing, and the only time when the majority of the scums were lurking was in the GPRO Prison game, and most of them were noobscum or just ridicolously shitty scum who were supposed to be intelligent Leaders.
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Quote ( Matthew Standen @ August 5th 2012,22:38:44 ) I can see some logic to that, if we're agreed that the vig shouldn't use his ability. It would stop any fake vig claims later in the game, and would mean that any dietician "positive" result would definately be a scum.
The main downside to that is it increases the likelihood of scum hitting the dietician at night. I'm sure that the dietician is the primary target for both the goons and the SK, and the vig claiming would reduce the number of "unknowns" by one, thus slightly increasing the chance of the dietician being hit by a NK. Yeah, it's not as terrible an idea as it seems as first. Vig is a role as likely to hurt us as help us with their action early game, and an unclaimed vig will be a great kill for scum as it's free fake claim.
I'm normally strongly against any narrowing down of info for scum so early in the game, but there's actually quite a few plus points to an early vig claim in this setup.
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