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Topic: [Mafia] 09:12(Game Over) |
2361 replies
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What I meant to say Jasper was that whilst I was considering it all, I deliberately not responding because I did not want more info from you in the way of responses - I wanted to analyse what was already there
Kirsty was quite right when she said we should stop you all talking - we wanted to just read old stuff and think it through :-)
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Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ March 15th 2017,17:50:20 ) What was bad is that instead of Sam investigating me, he went for Riley and scum had important info about PR.
What was ironic was that Stuart's soft-claim saved me from being NK'd and allowed me to catch Tim in the act
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Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ March 15th 2017,17:50:20 ) I was just pissed off. And after that episode, it was between me and Kirsty and I did say it had to be me or Kirsty, though I was the better option. Because if I was around in D2, there would be too much WIFOM surrounding me.
No different from Kirsty still being alive. And lynch may even have swung to Stuart, who knows? But no benefit in giving up, especially as...Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ March 15th 2017,17:50:20 ) What was bad is that instead of Sam investigating me, he went for Riley and scum had important info about PR.
:D
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 15th 2017,17:47:40 ) Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ March 15th 2017,17:45:22 )
You were massively more scummy than Jasper since he replaced in.
What is "more scummy"? That's something people hit out with that makes no sense! :p
What is scummy about creating content, putting everyone under pressure (don't think I missed anyone out if we go over the full game :p), pushing scum lynches and saving town from the lynch? I don't know how I could appear "less scummy" lol :)
Maybe because I knew your style (you do all that both as town and scum) and didn't know Jasper was actually so good (sorry Jasper, thought you were a noob :P). He completely dissipated my initial scum read on Sam with his play, until late on D3 I was confident he was town, I was considering Kirsty a more likely buddy of Tim.
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Quote ( Riley Dunlop @ March 15th 2017,17:51:55 ) The post where I pasted 4 or 5 search links was the final thing I think. Where Jasper was disagreeing with Tim all the time but in a very passive way
I actually disregarded that as a non-tell either way. Didn't think there was much in it and could easily have been a town-Jasper with similar responses.
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 15th 2017,17:56:23 ) Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ March 15th 2017,17:50:20 )
I was just pissed off. And after that episode, it was between me and Kirsty and I did say it had to be me or Kirsty, though I was the better option. Because if I was around in D2, there would be too much WIFOM surrounding me.
No different from Kirsty still being alive. And lynch may even have swung to Stuart, who knows? But no benefit in giving up, especially as...Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ March 15th 2017,17:50:20 )
What was bad is that instead of Sam investigating me, he went for Riley and scum had important info about PR.
:D
But you didn't have a "really strong town read" on me and I doubt you would have. :P
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Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ March 15th 2017,17:56:25 ) Maybe because I knew your style (you do all that both as town and scum) and didn't know Jasper was actually so good (sorry Jasper, thought you were a noob :P). He completely dissipated my initial scum read on Sam with his play, until late on D3 I was confident he was town, I was considering Kirsty a more likely buddy of Tim.
Which just adds to my point that "looks more scummy" means very little (Kirsty is terrible for saying that :p). It's about working out motive and looking at evidence. Playstyle is not a scum or town tell. Thinking Jasper was town simply because he was active and clearly intelligent (experienced too but smarts >> experience) is an example of that.
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Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ March 15th 2017,17:59:18 ) But you didn't have a "really strong town read" on me and I doubt you would have. :P
I've no idea what I would have had. I didn't have one on Kirsty at that stage either. It was niggling, and enough to get me to save her, but it was only when thinking about it, coupled with some stuff on day 2 (rolefishing is one I've pointed out, and not going in to others because "tells" :p), that it was really confident :)
If you were alive, no idea how I would feel about you going forward. No need to keep putting yourself down and thinking so negatively (at least that's the impression I get with the "better lynched" stuff). Stay focused :)
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Last headlined point... :)
Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ August 26th 2015,11:55:57 ) Nice to see some activity :)
Now time for a Kevin, no one really cares and probably won't read anyway, post (maybe slight rant :p).
Activity (or lack of it)
If you aren't going to be active to whatever the game requirements are, don't join the game. Simples. Things obviously come up unexpectedly to impact on activity, and that can't be helped, but you should be, at the very least, keeping the mod fully informed by PM and allowing the mod to make a call on how to deal with it.
A mod needs to be strict but fair with such instances - replacements don't help a game, long term or repeated periods of inactivity don't help a game - so I'm not saying it's an easy thing to do. A mod also needs to try and be consistent, but this may not always be obvious to players as they aren't aware of circumstances or communication that has happened between inactive player and mod.
Someone being inactive is never an indication of alignment.
Lurking
Players lurking can only be dealt with by other players in the game. It is a valid strategy (albeit an infuriating one, and a poor one for a townie, in general, IMO) and it's up to everyone to deal with it by putting them under real lynch pressure. Now that's not giving them a couple of votes "to get them posting" as that really does very little. You must be willing to lynch them, and when they get close to the lynch, you'll see a change of style on most occasions.
Talk of no information being gained is simply not true. Information can be gained by how people react, vote, and justify their actions regardless of the person being lynched being active or not.
Any talk of appearing scummy by going after lurkers is total nonsense. Letting players that could be scum and aren't risking contributing anything to incriminate themselves away without any real pressure is poor town play.
Missing deadlines
This is simply not on, especially when a player has been active. There is no excuse to not have a vote down in time, even if on a "safe place" so as to make sure no deadline is missed. Totally against the spirit of the game to miss voting deadlines. Obviously, in the case of unknown inactivity, mod judgement needs to be used, but everyone should just keep a vote in place from early in the game day.
Joke phase / RVS
The purpose of this is to begin to generate a bit of activity. GPRO players tend to do it with a joke phase; it's more of a random voting stage elsewhere. It's not impossible that information can come from this to give a lead, but generally joke votes are joke votes - but that's how things differ from RVS on other sites.
Like dealing with lurkers, as I mentioned earlier, voting really isn't a big deal unless true intent to lynch, so true pressure is applied. With nothing to go on at the start of day 1, everyone is as likely scum as anyone else, so randomly picking one player and lynching them, or at least getting enough votes on them to make their lynch a real possibility (again, you must be willing to actually lynch them as the votes aren't really pressure if they're just for show), will generate a load of activity, reaction, and, hopefully information.
No lynch risk during the day
This infuriates the life out of me. Calls of "too early to end the game day" or, even worse "too early to put him at L-something" are total nonsense.
Most activity and game day information happens when people are under real pressure! Now that can be questioning, or that can be real lynch pressure (seeing a pattern yet, mentioned this a few times now?).
People need to stop being overly concerned about leaving time for information to appear while, at the very same time, not applying the kind of pressure that can give the kind of information you're apparently waiting for.
If someone deserves the pressure, try and lynch them. They'll defend themselves, others may defend them, they may not get lynched. But you'll have more talk in thread to work with than if they don't feel any real pressure on them.
Lynch deadlines
These are the latest time you can lynch; they are NOT when the lynch should be happening each day.
Lynches should happen any time during the day (see previous points). At the very latest, if early lynches can't be agreed upon, you should be trying to secure a lynch at least 24 hours before the actual lynch deadline so, if people's minds are changed last minute in light of a claim or other new information, then there is still time for everyone, regardless of timezone, to react.
Abusive play
Notice, I didn't say aggressive play. There is nothing wrong with aggressive play, but there's been outright abuse for no good gaming reason, sometimes stepping over the line too, in recent games. Not only is it not acceptable, it ruins games, both for those playing and those reading along.
And if you're going to be aggressive, ask yourself what your purpose is. Why are you doing it? Is it helping you achieve what you want to achieve or get the answers or responses you want to? Or is it just alienating players and making it harder to get responses? Is it time to ease off or take an easier approach? All things to consider. Nothing wrong with aggressive play, but solidly aggressive with no easing off, or aggressive with no actual purpose, is generally no good for anyone.
OMGUS - Town don't know you're town!
It's getting beyond a joke how some people attack, or outright claim someone to be scummy, just for doubting their alignment or not agreeing with their line of thought. Townies don't know you're being genuine. Your line of thought, even if genuine, may not always be correct.
By all means, if there is poor reasoning involved, question it, but you can't instantly assume anyone doubting you is scum.
Scum motivation and repeating stuff you don't understand
Talks of things "looking scummy" is, on the most part, total bullshit.
If you genuinely believe something to be scummy, then you should be able to explain the scum motivation behind the action(s) that you are claiming to be scummy. Is it actually scum motivated, or just an uninformed townie play?
And sick of hearing people trot out mafia-mantra they may have once heard but can't back up themselves to confirm how accurate or reliable it is. If you're going to claim something is scummy, you should be able to provide evidence or justification to why you think so.
---
Post/rant over :)
Anyone still want to play a game? :p
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Quote ( Riley Dunlop @ March 15th 2017,17:56:13 ) What was ironic was that Stuart's soft-claim saved me from being NK'd and allowed me to catch Tim in the act
No, we would have NKed Stuart on Night 2 anyway because like I said, I had already pinned him down as Jailkeeper before his soft-claim.
But is was ironic in the sense that the soft-claim was still bad for us, because I already had the knowledge, but nobody knew I had it! We lost that advantage the moment he claimed.
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Time for a fun-fact. This was just about the first thing I read after receiving my role PM (1455-1456):
Quote ( Riley Dunlop @ March 2nd 2017,11:37:26 ) I agree that if Sam is going to be modkilled anyway, we should lynch him - this was same as my view on Stuart just before the lynch.
My view on whether Sam is scum has been slightly ameliorated I guess but he was not really contributing even before his inactivity
From what I can make out Sam has just Kevin's vote on him right now
I am not around later so we can do this now, or we can wait a while for a replacement - it has been 3.5 hours since Sudeep asked
Quote ( Riley Dunlop @ March 2nd 2017,11:40:39 ) I would also lynch Tim
I confess I wanted to scream. :D
This is what made me decide: I'm not surviving this game, so let's do all I can to survive this day, and set Tim up well for LyLo.
That in turn is why I had such difficulty lynching Tim on Day 2. I had done everything thinking Tim is our only chance to win this game, I didn't even consider an alternative. In hindsight I should have lynched him and claimed a good part of the credit, but I could not make that decision in two minutes when all I've tried to achieve until that point was survive the day and get lynched myself on Day 3!
So I really wanted to lynch Kevin but not even one townie followed my vote, which was disappointing, and Tim was in a position where he couldn't swing around to Kevin because of what he had said earlier in the day. This is where daytalk could have helped us a bit (I'm not complaining, just saying this for those who wonder what difference daytalk would have made).
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Like I said:
Quote ( Riley Dunlop @ March 13th 2017,22:31:43 ) Riley: The God of Mafia
:-P
Actually at that stage I was really struggling with reads and was trying to get reactions more than anything :-D
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Ivelin and Phil's day 1 hunches were quite accurate. I thought Phil getting killed might incriminate Sam a lot more, than what actually happened.
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Why would Phil being killed incriminate Sam more?
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Cause Phil only wanted to lynch Sam. That's one of the reasons he was killed.
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Could just as easily have been someone trying to incriminate Sam. Although the fact no one brought that up points to it being bit less likely, but then if no one else brings it up, someone doing so can look scummy as might look as if that's what they've done :)
I don't take a great deal of information from who has been killed as it's all massively WIFOMy. Anyone ever found it to be a reliable but of evidence? Certainly seen it mentioned plenty on mafia QTs to get rid of people causing them hassle.
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ March 15th 2017,20:06:57 ) get rid of people causing them hassle. That's how I won my only game as Mafia. WIFOM is powerful.
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A lot on MS. Mafia kill the player who is suspecting them the most at night. But here the site meta is different.
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I hope Sam pops in to the topic by the way. :)
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enjoyed it, but the replacements made it hard to read people when it mattered most I think
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I think the setup balance is questionable.
If you are Scum with a Rolecop, Town PRs have MORE information regarding the PRs in the setup than you have.
If you're unlucky, it could stay that way until LYLO. I think that's pretty unbalanced.
Also, Rolecop isn't exactly a shining role compared to Follower and Jailkeeper, both roles that could potentially screw you over with just one night action.
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