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Téma: Driver Energy |
2267 odpovědí
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Quote ( Mark Webster @ September 21st 2016,21:25:22 ) I quite like driver's energy so far, but I think Elite-level drivers should be able to run a whole race on 100CT risks, using most of their energy (say 95% of it).
It's quite weird, I think this is a change that has affected Master and Pro far more than it has Elite. Maybe it's changed the focus of driver training, but that's all.
Agreed , however, I like the idea that energy cannot be regained to 100% every race, makes strategy a bigger part of the game.
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Yep, and eliminate super rookie and super ama managers... IMO good addition :)
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Quote ( Mick Ridley @ September 21st 2016,22:06:29 ) Agreed , however, I like the idea that energy cannot be regained to 100% every race, makes strategy a bigger part of the game.
+1
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Quote ( Emil Kwiatkowski @ September 21st 2016,22:21:50 ) Yep, and eliminate super rookie and super ama managers... IMO good addition :)
I would have expected to be around p15-20 but have been in the points with relayively low risks. Loving it.
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Then ride without risks, set worse setup or made extra pit... Strategy :)
It's not hard to finish on lower position... It's harder to finish race on higher positions :)
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I must say in THE last 2 races i gained my best race endings in amatuer group first race 2th place and second race 1st place so i love THE energie stuff already
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Quote ( James Berriman @ September 21st 2016,10:54:44 )
I don't like to be mean, but, it does seem like a lot of poor managers have had their nice easy option taken away:) come on guys, reap the rewards of racing with proper risks. It will benefit you in the long run to learn to play properly :P
(puts on crash helmet)
I can understand what you tried to explain there, careful though, energy not only affects bad management, could also affect the best managers, at least in the way it has been implemented.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea behind the energy thing, it brings more strategy to the table, I just think it shouldn't work this way, like being related to stamina (as far as I know), when stamina is already overporwered doesn't seem like a fair thing.
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Quote ( Julio Asencio @ September 22nd 2016,16:10:29 ) Quote ( James Berriman @ September 21st 2016,10:54:44 )
I can understand what you tried to explain there, careful though, energy not only affects bad management, could also affect the best managers, at least in the way it has been implemented.
Don't get me wrong, I love the idea behind the energy thing, it brings more strategy to the table, I just think it shouldn't work this way, like being related to stamina (as far as I know), when stamina is already overporwered doesn't seem like a fair thing.
You assuming it has something to do with stamina, but are you sure. I am assuming it has to do with more than 1 trait/ability by what I have observed with my driver. So really most of us is assuming it is this and it is that when we really don't know yet.
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Christopher, I'm not saying that the energy is dictaminated by stamina, I'm saying they are related, nothing else. It's quite obvious, don't you think? They're telling us our driver will stop pushing once energy is gone, so what attribute plays a main role here? ;)
My point is we are giving stamina even more power than it has already.
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Quote ( Julio Asencio @ September 22nd 2016,16:21:55 ) My point is we are giving stamina even more power than it has already.
Are we? ;-)
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Quote ( Mick Ridley @ September 21st 2016,22:06:29 ) Quote ( Mark Webster @ September 21st 2016,21:25:22 )
I quite like driver's energy so far, but I think Elite-level drivers should be able to run a whole race on 100CT risks, using most of their energy (say 95% of it).
It's quite weird, I think this is a change that has affected Master and Pro far more than it has Elite. Maybe it's changed the focus of driver training, but that's all.
Agreed , however, I like the idea that energy cannot be regained to 100% every race, makes strategy a bigger part of the game.
I like the part where nobody can push 100CT without running out of energy, so OBP is almost ruled out. and I wonder if motivation drops/gains continues the same. Other than that, also agree that 100% is almost impossible to obtain or impossible after full drain.
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Quote ( Marcelo Ascencio @ September 22nd 2016,16:35:41 ) I like the part where nobody can push 100CT without running out of energy, so OBP is almost ruled out.
OBP isn't ruled out. Quite the contrary, OBP became super piece of ultra cake from the piece of cake it was before the energy mechanics. At worst, an OBPer will use the same CT as other people (so it would be equally easy as before) but normally an OBPer will have more available energy than the average for the field. After all, he has been sandbagging, whereas the rest of the field have been actually using their energy, so the OBPer should have more energy available (so more CT available) than the average manager on the field.
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Quote ( Julio Asencio @ September 22nd 2016,16:21:55 ) Christopher, I'm not saying that the energy is dictaminated by stamina, I'm saying they are related, nothing else. It's quite obvious, don't you think? They're telling us our driver will stop pushing once energy is gone, so what attribute plays a main role here? ;)
My point is we are giving stamina even more power than it has already.
There the assumption again that they are related. So what attribute plays main role, well that's for you to find out and how do you know there is not more than attribute that plays a key role?
Main thing I am saying, give it a season and observe. Tell a friend or team what you observe and discuss it or keep it to yourself. Assumption are assumption so really can't go by it.
Edit: this is almost like science.
Opinion, test, observe, facts/results, conclusion
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You are clearly missing my point :)
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Having seen R2 now, I must say I am a bit disappointed with the current driver energy system. I'm still a fan of the feature itself, but I'm underwhelmed with the simplicity of it. Without going into details and some FOBY info, I expected more from the way it would work; I think there is a big room for improvement.
Given the way the energy loss and recovery are right now, in my opinion, spa training should be abolished, and for the following reasons:
1. It's pointless. It works against the idea of introducing driver energy ceiling and the recovery rate in the first place. What's the point of having the real time recovery and driver not being able to regain all energy "naturally", if we can just pay 300k and get all of the energy back for the next race? Just to give people choice between training up a driver or being able to race for points? This leads me to the next point.
2. It has way too much effect on the race outcome. In order to do well in a race we need as much energy as we can lay our hands on, so spa training all of the sudden becomes a necessity, not a choice.
3. As we feared after R1, spa shifts focus away from long-term driver development, and not only because of the "natural" recovery rate (I won't go into details). That then makes it extremely hard, even maybe impossible to develop drivers and retain or promote.
Ioannis proposed to throw some cash at it to resolve this problem, i.e.being able to do spa on top of normal training and having additional facilities and pay for energy recovery that way. I am still dead set against that. It renders the energy loss and recovery feature useless. If people have a choice of regaining total or even just some additional energy, they will do it every time. If it's cheap, everyone will pay to recover the energy. If it's expensive, people will be more reluctant, but they'll still do it and sacrifice other development, like testing, upgrading facilities, training staff, whatever they can do to make sure they have the maximum energy available. And that in turn again makes the driver energy useless, it dilutes the intended effect.
Just coming back to the 2nd point I made above, we already have sports psycho training, which doesn't improve driver's long term abilities. But we don't keep doing it race after race because it doesn't have as much immediate impact on the driver's race pace and ability to fight for points. In addition, motivation keeps going up, if we keep doing well, so there is no need for constant sports psycho training. Energy, on the other hand, keeps going down every race, so spa is a must every race if we want to fully utilise the driver's ability. And in the races where we don't do spa we have to back off even more, give them up. That would be fine, no problem with backing off when the energy bar is not at 100%, if other people didn't have the option of recovering extra energy and therefore being able to push harder every race and keep increasing motivation. Spa training does not provide an even playing field.
That's why I think we should get rid of spa. It's the only way, I believe, we can make it an even playing field again, and shift the balance back towards a long-term development.
And just to those of you who are still against the energy feature, it is not much different to the system we had before. It's just more severe, more obvious and more "visible". Before we had some "high-risk randoms" to mix things up, peg us back a bit, and remind us that we're pushing too hard. But most of us couldn't recognise it. Most would just assume it's a random, which in a way is and is not (we could push for half a season and then randomly the driver would soil his pants once in a while, so there is a random effect there, but recognising it we had a choice to do something about it to prevent it, so it's not a "true random"), we'd complain about it, then get over it and push hard again. There was not much in terms of consequence. Now we're getting our butt kicked every race and we're being made to modify our tactics. The penalty for pushing hard has become much more severe, as running at no risk for 15 or 20 laps once the energy drops to 0% costs more than an extra "random" pit stop. So it's pretty much the same thing, just much more frequent, in fact, it's a given if we push too hard, and the penalty for using too much risk is much harsher. But that's the only difference. So nothing to complain about. We just have to manage the energy, but the spa training prevents that.
I also do have a couple of other ideas how the driver energy feature could be improved, but I first wanted to throw this one out there for discussion. I have no problem with having to manage energy, I love the idea, I think it's great, but I do have a problem with optional "artificial" recovery, which really isn't optional and disadvantages long-term planning and development.
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Quote ( Mick Ridley @ September 21st 2016,22:06:29 ) I like the idea that energy cannot be regained to 100% every race, makes strategy a bigger part of the game.
Yeah definitely. Agree with that.
Quote ( Marcelo Ascencio @ September 22nd 2016,16:35:41 ) OBP is almost ruled out.
OBP to me was a legitimate strategy, particularly in Elite. I'm sad to see it taken away.
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Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ September 22nd 2016,18:20:33 ) That's why I think we should get rid of spa. It's the only way, I believe, we can make it an even playing field again, and shift the balance back towards a long-term development.
i think we agree on that mate!! what i suggested is an alternative , but getting rid of spa training is another option :)
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Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ September 22nd 2016,18:34:09 ) Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ September 22nd 2016,18:20:33 )
That's why I think we should get rid of spa. It's the only way, I believe, we can make it an even playing field again, and shift the balance back towards a long-term development.
i think we agree on that mate!! what i suggested is an alternative , but getting rid of spa training is another option :)
tbh if you want to keep planing, strategic development is "a must".
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Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ September 22nd 2016,18:34:09 ) i think we agree on that mate!! what i suggested is an alternative , but getting rid of spa training is another option :)
Totally agree on this point. The Spa training is actually really too powerful!!
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Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ September 22nd 2016,18:20:33 ) 2. It has way too much effect on the race outcome. In order to do well in a race we need as much energy as we can lay our hands on, so spa training all of the sudden becomes a necessity, not a choice.
Better than taking it away would be just to tone down its effects.
Right now we have:
End race at 0 energy, then do spa, qualis plus natural regain automatically means 100 energy to start the next race.
Tone it down to around half of what it is now (or even 1/3rd) and then it becomes an optional training choice, rather than the best choice, as it wouldn't get you all the way back to 100 from 0.
Another option would be to let the other trainings give small amounts of energy back (but nowhere near as much as spa)
A final option would be to have two levels of each training - where the base level does as it currently does, while the upper level does the same PLUS a small amount of energy. (the upper level obviously costing more money)
But reducing the effect of the spa is the most important.... or massively increasing the price so it is never likely to gain you way more than its cost
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Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ September 22nd 2016,18:34:09 ) i think we agree on that mate!! what i suggested is an alternative , but getting rid of spa training is another option :)
You probably see the reason I was not a fan of your idea, Ioannis. It would only address the driver development issue,that's all, which is good, but on the flip side it would work against the energy feature itself, simplifying it and making it less exciting. It wouldn't give us more choices, because there would be no choice; we'd still have to do what we can to maximise energy so it would just cost us all more cash.
Quote ( Michał Bollin @ September 22nd 2016,18:39:27 ) tbh if you want to keep planing, strategic development is "a must".
Yeap, my thought exactly. It is a must and the sooner the better. This way those who are developing drivers right now won't be negatively affected.
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Quote ( Robin Goodey @ September 22nd 2016,18:52:51 ) Better than taking it away would be just to tone down its effects.
I have thought about it, Rob, and exactly the same way as you proposed here. I was thinking to either attach some small energy increases to other trainings to help with recovery or to reduce the gain from spa training, but I came to the conclusion that energy has such impact on race pace that people will do anything to get even a little bit of it back. If you have some energy recovery when doing yoga, or ninja, it will again take away from the actual feature, and will change the training system. Getting rid of spa (or any regeneration other than the real time recovery) is the only way I can see to restore the status quo we had before with long-term development while not diluting the driver energy feature itself and making it less interesting.
E: sorry about the double-post, I thought someone would've already said something before I got to write this. :D
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Even if that % gained from fitness or yoga etc was say 1-5%?
And spa was only 10-15%?
Would that extra 5-10% make enough of a difference to the CT available (for the next race) to make it worthwhile, as opposed to training for a better long term driver (especially once it becomes widely known what stats assist with retaining energy)
Anyway - it's just a thought - and this is coming from someone who has benefitted from the feature with unexpected points and a podium in the first two races.
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Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ September 22nd 2016,18:53:16 ) You probably see the reason I was not a fan of your idea, Ioannis
i see , but i disagree...
with energy feature, race strategy gained too much power against money management and you fear that this will be simplyfied with this facility...
i think that a nice balance will be found...
one may select to pay 10M more seasonwise and keep training driver
one may select to pay 10M more seasonwise to use 10CT more
one may select to use those 10M somewhere else
one may select to pay 5M more seasonwise , but not risk in Qs also and train driver
so us you can see.. if the effect of the facility is well balanced, then a manager will be able to make more complex manager decisions
at the same time due to energy feature one will be able to win better places with somewhat lower risks
so if he manages to take results with 10CT risk less he will either win those extra money given to the facility or keep training driver etc...
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I am sorry. I do not like the ''energy' addition at all. Up to now it has been the best driver, best car and best set up that has won the race, now we have a random factor. What happened to the promised live position on track feature that was coming?
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I do not understand that some menagery still weep over this innovation act negatively towards the same, as if only the driver applies them energy and not that all the same. Personal is a choice each of us what kind of training will be used to develop its driver.
And I am pleased to once and for all ended the practice of had extremely CT!
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Quote ( Robin Goodey @ September 22nd 2016,19:12:39 ) Would that extra 5-10% make enough of a difference to the CT available (for the next race) to make it worthwhile, as opposed to training for a better long term driver (especially once it becomes widely known what stats assist with retaining energy)
Do the math, Rob, if you can do 40 laps at 100CT and then energy is at 0%, extra 10% gives you 4 laps at max pace as opposed to 0CT pace. What's the total difference in race time? ;)
But forget that, because even with 100% energy we can't complete the race distance at max pace. Have you tested what difference the 10% energy makes to the amount of risk you can use to go full race distance without slowing down? It's more than just significant, I can tell you that much. So those who don't do spa and don't have this extra 10% available will be losing out every race again.
Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ September 22nd 2016,19:17:07 ) one may select to pay 10M more seasonwise and keep training driver
one may select to pay 10M more seasonwise to use 10CT more
one may select to use those 10M somewhere else
one may select to pay 5M more seasonwise , but not risk in Qs also and train driver
so us you can see.. if the effect of the facility is well balanced, then a manager will be able to make more complex manager decisions
at the same time due to energy feature one will be able to win better places with somewhat lower risks
so if he manages to take results with 10CT risk less he will either win those extra money given to the facility or keep training driver etc...
Sorry Ioannis, I don't quite follow. But I do understand that you'd want to give more choices to the way we'd spend the money to get the desired effect. I'm assuming this is just an example, because something like this would have to be really tuned well.
Quote ( Rob Morris @ September 22nd 2016,19:21:32 ) I am sorry. I do not like the ''energy' addition at all. Up to now it has been the best driver, best car and best set up that has won the race, now we have a random factor. What happened to the promised live position on track feature that was coming?
Oh no, still looking back. No, not every race was won by the best package. Don't you remember the randoms you were complaining about before? We had random factors before now. Energy only transformed them into something we actually recognize as the effect of pushing too hard. And we're still to work out how to overcome it.
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Quote ( Julio Asencio @ September 22nd 2016,18:19:40 ) You are clearly missing my point :)
You missing the point, that people want to make more changes to a new feature that most likely nobody knows what affects what yet, which going to make things even more complicated. It all boiled down to some hate they can't run 100ct anymore and they want it gone or want immediate changes to benefit them. Everyone in the same boat here and have to relearn how to make a good strategy with your driver for a good race. It not going to be handed out to you on a silver platter. A lot of managers wanted change, and now you have it. Take it how you want to, just tired of hearing so much complaints without even trying to figuring it out first.
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Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ September 22nd 2016,18:20:33 )
Having seen R2 now, I must say I am a bit disappointed with the current driver energy system. I'm still a fan of the feature itself, but I'm underwhelmed with the simplicity of it. Without going into details and some FOBY info, I expected more from the way it would work; I think there is a big room for improvement...
Whereas I fully agree with you, I think tweaking must include a way wider spectrum. If we eliminate Spa training altogether, this will means OBPers will effectively have full energy available for all the convenient weather races (unless 2 in a row :D) whereas everybody else will be stuck at way lower energy. Even if it was just 10% lower energy, that's still too overpowered in favoring OBP-ing.
I know OBP shouldn't be eliminated altogether, but we are going quite in the opposite direction: making it easier each time. You could argue it would find a stabilization point, because it isn't as there will be 40 Contis per group in Pro and Master, but anything that makes OBP more viable means the number of contis per group at that stabilization points goes higher. We are already at an outstanding 23.5% share of Contis in Master (24.4% if we exclude pipis). We have had just 1.5 favorable races for Contis (R1 was a huge mess, plus it had wet Q2, and with the hard overtaking difficulty it didn't arguable give any noticeable help to Conti users). Still, already ~42% of them have their retention almost granted (2 or more points).
Another important thing in which OBP was made even more powerful is in driver motivation. Previously, driver motivation was super important, because gaining places on the track was very hard. With the energy addition it isn't a big deal anymore (same as pitstop times aren't so important now). This means sandbagging most of the season, so the driver motivation plumets, won't even matter but a tiny bit for the OBP races.
I seriously wouldn't want to play a game in which consistency is only rewarded if you are a very frontrunner. At the moment, everybody who get average place 12th to 25th has seriously jeopardized retention if they didn't pick an OBP tyre. I don't buy the it's the same for everybody argument, because I'm not willing to play the OBP game, no matter how easy it is to retain with that.
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