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Téma: PHA or something else? |
288 odpovědí
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Quote ( Dominiek Van West @ December 30th 2018,12:59:37 ) I don't think that was a good example Jukka. A better front wing can indeed have a negative effect on your rear wing which means the car could handle worse. If that's the case, then the (H)andling of your car shoud get lower.
If H gets higher then this means the TOTAL handling (all parts combined) of the car is better.
I guess it's useless to argue with you. Also you didn't answer my question.
Like I said, there is no PHA in real life. So comparing GPRO to real life in that sense is ridiculous. But you wanted an example where an engine with more horsepower is worse, so I gave you one.
The thing is that in real life, when you compare 2 engines, one may be better on some tracks and another on others. In GPRO, when you compared two engines, either they were the same, or one was better on all tracks. Also, unlike in real life, there was no interaction between different parts, so front wing for example didn't affect rear wings performance. So if you want it in real life terms, PHA mathing tries to somewhat emulate that.
Let's say that a level of a part would give 4-0-2. For PHA matching it would be the same if it gave 2-(-2)-0. Would it make happier if the PHA sum was always zero. So there would be a different method of better levels giving more pace, but PHA total would be always zero, so when buying a higher level part you would lose some and win some.
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I totally don't understand what you are saying, so I'm no longer surprised I don't understand your implementation on this game... And still nobody's answer my questions. Why we see PHA that is fake (unless wear is equal )?
For who are those upgrades of the game , this little people who can spending hours studying data?
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Quote ( Marcin Skrzypiec @ December 30th 2018,13:58:42 ) Why we see PHA that is fake (unless wear is equal )?
It's not "fake". What is/was done is that some other effects are calculated through the PHA, so they get added to it. But still, the shown PHA had/has the same effect regardless of the other things. The "problem" is that PHA matching is applied also to those other things. This is kind of problematic as you don't know what things are applied through PHA and how, and what are applied otherwise. But the shown PHA is not fake.
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I'm puzzled by car PHA and how it applies to track PHA from long time ago. Now, I don't feel alone with the problem.
I think that makes car PHA confusing is that it increased as the level of the car increase. So, when you bought a new engine you got an increase of total PHA of the car which makes difficult to understand how it affects the matching to track PHA.
I suggest a change in the way that car PHA is show. It can be show as the sum up of P, H and A as constant number. Then, level up an engine, for example, will change the relationship among P, H and A but it will not change the total number. The other important number will be car level that will reflect the average parts level plus CCPs.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ December 30th 2018,13:22:01 ) I guess it's useless to argue with you. Also you didn't answer my question.
This is no way to speak to users. As an administrator you should always react friendly if you are not offended yourself. Users are allowed to have a discussion, argument, right?
What question are you talking about? Is it:
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ December 30th 2018,12:47:05 ) You are so stubborn. You asked about real life example, I gave you one. Then you speak about GPRO. To emulate real life, the gain from upgrade should be random. Do you want that?
If it is, then sorry, I thought that was a retorical question. No I don't want that.
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ December 30th 2018,13:22:01 ) Like I said, there is no PHA in real life. So comparing GPRO to real life in that sense is ridiculous. But you wanted an example where an engine with more horsepower is worse, so I gave you one.
I don't understand this. You gave an example about wings, not about engine. Did I miss something? Could you direct me to the post with your example with the engine? This is your post about this:
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ December 30th 2018,12:18:14 ) There is no P, H and A in real life. It's much more complicated. If your engine gets more horsepower, yes, it improves "P", but the effect to "H" and "A" are questionable. Also, inside "H" there are many different effects. Improved "H" from front wing may decrease "H" from rear wing. The last sentence was also for real life.
In my example I compared two identical engines.
I just think the way PHA is shown now can be very confusing.
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#96 přispěno 30 Prosinec 2018, 14:22:16 (naposledy změněno 30 Prosinec 2018, 14:22:36 od Jukka Sireni)
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Quote ( Dominiek Van West @ December 30th 2018,14:15:34 ) In my example I compared two identical engines.
There is no point in comparing two identical engines. Identical=identical.
Quote ( Dominiek Van West @ December 30th 2018,14:15:34 ) I don't understand this. You gave an example about wings, not about engine. Did I miss something? Could you direct me to the post with your example with the engine? This is your post about this:
Quote ( Dominiek Van West @ December 30th 2018,14:15:34 ) If your engine gets more horsepower, yes, it improves "P", but the effect to "H" and "A" are questionable.
In GPRO every time you invest, you get everything. In real life sense that's unrealistic. So the only way to make two different engines vary in performance is to have an effect that can sometimes make higher level part worse.
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I really don't care whether Vlad unadmins and bans me for finding you annoying, but yes, you are annoying. You ask something, I answer, and then you turn it into something else. You asked a real life example where an engine with more horsepower is worse. I gave you one. Then you say, no, not just horsepower, but every imaginable aspect of it is better. Then you even say that I gave no answer at all.
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Can I get a specific answer?
The car reaches a net lap time on a given track. The worn engine (20%--->0%) are replaced by the same level; the car accelerates?
(PHA does not change.)
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#99 přispěno 30 Prosinec 2018, 14:41:58 (naposledy změněno 30 Prosinec 2018, 14:42:38 od Jukka Sireni)
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Quote ( Tibor Szuromi @ December 30th 2018,14:39:05 ) The car reaches a net lap time on a given track. The worn engine (20%--->0%) are replaced by the same level; the car accelerates?
Wasn't that answered in the first post? It may get faster or slower (depending on track). On average it gets faster.
Like said, applying PHA matching also to PHA adjustments was probably a mistake and may get changed (if no admin sees a reason not to).
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We (and others) just have a different understanding of what PHA stands for/should stand for. So it will be an endless discussion.
It would be better that the game admins gave a clear explanation how PHA should be interpreted.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ December 30th 2018,14:41:58 )
Wasn't that answered in the first post? Sorry. I've already forgotten.
Then I have to analyze this separately for each track. :(
Thank you!
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Quote ( Dominiek Van West @ December 30th 2018,14:46:02 ) It would be better that the game admins gave a clear explanation how PHA should be interpreted.
na,,, for me, FOBY is much better, for fun and competition.
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Quote ( Roland Postle @ December 30th 2018,02:14:48 ) Way I see the big picture here is that in higher divisions the car had lost it's importance versus driver, and this change restores that, at least partially maybe even enough. It seems, so far, like a very well targetted rebalancing as much as it is a change for change's sake. Apart from math complexity it adds importance to planning, new ways to achieve goals across a season, increases variation amongst the tracks, and even dents the importance of tyre brands a little bit. All good stuff imho.
Roland, I agree that the change that adds more planning and options for strategies is a welcomed thing.
However the way THIS was implemented without thinking of all dependencies and how it influences even basic parts of the game (as admitted by Jukka) is a very bad example of a change IMO. This clearly needs official explanation to all GPRO community as majority of players don't read forums and it's very unfair to keep this semi silently.
Maybe I am missing something, but how can people find out an invisible car characteristic which depends on part wear and how it adds to visable car PHA if we are not provided any usable data related to that? Change of lap time is clearly not enough.
I think the way PHA is shown should be changed and should include both car lvl and car wear into consideration instead of reflecting only part of that, since the engine that calculates net pace involves both parameters.
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Quote ( Dominiek Van West @ December 30th 2018,14:46:02 ) It would be better that the game admins gave a clear explanation how PHA should be interpreted.
The given car (p, h, a) on any track (P, H, A) is faster if PHA (perfectly) fits better?
[I know the goodness of fit (P, H, A).]
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Yeah, while I think some of the comments above are a little unhelpful as they are merely serving to wind-up Jukka, I agree with Rimantas that we need more clarity on the matter.
Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ December 30th 2018,14:56:57 ) Change of lap time is clearly not enough.
This is the only piece of data that I can see at least. The fluctuations are quite large, but this is not 'hard' data as such. Like you say, would be better really if the PHA figure accounted for wear effected change to the value, so we actually have a hard number to work from. I don't see it being helpful to anyone that we effectively have an invisible characteristic at play. The fact of the matter is, PHA matching now greatly impacts more the lap time, while we have less hard data to attempt to achieve it.
That's at least how it seems so?
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#106 přispěno 30 Prosinec 2018, 15:04:39 (naposledy změněno 30 Prosinec 2018, 15:06:38 od Chris Shaw)
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Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ December 30th 2018,14:56:57 ) Apart from math complexity
Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ December 30th 2018,14:56:57 ) All good stuff imho.
I disagree. If you enjoy mathematical modelling as a hobby it is ideal for you, but that's a very small demographic. For GPRO to be a commercial success (fun for everyone) we need something simple to understand but nigh impossible to master. Planning is great, stategy is great, but the game must remain accessible to the masses and so requiring players to be master modellers limits appeal (or results in false-FOBYism whereby you join a team and pretend you knew how it all works, whilst telling other players to go FOBY).
(FYI I regard commercial success in relative terms, given how little of the potential market GPRO is currently appealing to).
Edit: I'm leaving those quotes as Rimantas' name :P
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Well, sorry all. I'm such a bad person.
Wear effect won't be put to shown PHA. Either the PHA speed effect would need much complication, or the PHA speed effect would become laughably easy to solve. With or without matching change.
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Why you belive something easy to solve is something bad? I like the idea of PHA matching but is complicated and visible stats leads people to wrong conclusions.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ December 30th 2018,15:06:49 ) Either the PHA speed effect would need much complication, or the PHA speed effect would become laughably easy to solve.
Why would that be a bad thing, Jukka? Also, have you thought that what is laughable to you, might not be the case for majority of people?
It would still leave all the elements of planning and managing your seasonal part replacements correctly to maximize your pace at certain or even all races. And this is not that easy for most of players having many other factors in the play.
With current data provided I find PHA affect impossible to solve for more than 99% of players if even possible at all???
Is that really what admins are trying to achieve - add more randomness to the cars pace?
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I help to run a team just for newbies and this new PHA just muddies the waters further for new players.
It might suit some of the old guard that have a big advantage but this change does not help new players.
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FWIW Jason, I think the change is not just bad for newbies. It's no longer about just PHA but PHA-W. Everything else related to the car we see a live value for. I don't see how it helps that PHA matching with effectively an invisible characteristic can be so rewarding on lap time when nobody has a hard number infront of them to actually base from in order to achieve it.
PHA is now effectively a moving target. If admins seriously think it is laughable that this is actually fine to go forward with. Well. I am lost for words. I support the change, it is a positive step, it is important the game evolves and allows for more strategy. I like that the car is/can be more important, but I do think some more clarity/hard data is needed.
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Quote ( Stuart Foster @ December 30th 2018,15:34:29 ) FWIW Jason, I think the change is not just bad for newbies.
They already have to work out what makes a driver fast, without PHA muddying the waters to the point even a champion like Rimantas doesn't understand.
I am not saying it isn't bad for older managers as well, but they already know what makes a driver quick. Newbies don't.
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Quote ( Jason Claydon @ December 30th 2018,15:26:02 ) I run a team just for newbies and this new PHA just muddies the waters further for new players.
It might suit some of the old guard that have a big advantage but this change does not help new players.
I do believe that it is probably not the most important element of the game in Rookie, Amateur and in many cases Pro as well. My suggestion to new players in your team would be not to focus on PHA but just focus on how to manage parts effectively from a pure cost perspective. I think 95% of rookies and amateurs don't arrive at a level of planning where PHA becomes the next important thing to look at.
In that sense, the PHA change is not a bad thing - make things complicated for the top levels without affecting the lower levels. It's a bit similar to driver energy, which should also be something you don't even look at in Rookie/Ama.
@Jukka: nobody was criticising you personally, I don't think there is a need to go down that road. Chill out and come back tomorrow. :)
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ December 30th 2018,15:39:01 ) In that sense, the PHA change is not a bad thing - make things complicated for the top levels without affecting the lower levels. It's a bit similar to driver energy, which should also be something you don't even look at in Rookie/Ama.
Energy is the most talked about thing in our team and PHA even affects us small fry down here.
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Yes, but Jasper's point stands to reason when you look at the smaller differences between Pro Q times top 20 of a group and then amateur. Master its even tighter. The car has a much larger impact in the higher levels because small margins matter. In amateur, and especially more so in rookie, you can offset the car with the driver - by quite some margin. So the car and PHA characteristics are less important. Still of benefit, but not so important as such.
But anyway, I agree with Jasper that you shouldn't take any of this as a personal criticism Jukka. Everybody here i'm sure recognises and appreciates that you take the time to participate in these types of discussions.
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Yes I agree Stuart the differences are smaller, but far from insignificant.
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#117 přispěno 30 Prosinec 2018, 15:57:10 (naposledy změněno 30 Prosinec 2018, 16:17:18 od Maxim Kotov)
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Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ December 30th 2018,15:19:25 ) With current data provided I find PHA affect impossible to solve for more than 99% of players if even possible at all???
It will depend on how often admins decide to tweak it. If it stays unchanged as it is now for a couple of years, then some teams might get very close to cracking up the formula of how hidden-post-wear-and-other-treatments PHA is calculated. Of course it will be impossible to solve it to the hard numbers because only net time is given as a result. But we live with this already regarding some other game attributes, such as tyres performance, driver stats or car parts.
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ December 30th 2018,14:41:58 ) Like said, applying PHA matching also to PHA adjustments was probably a mistake and may get changed (if no admin sees a reason not to).
Jukka, please make your decision asap and announce that it will be reverted to clean visible PHA matching or announce that it will stay as it is! Like I said before, MAYBE changing this again SOMEDAY will be the worst thing to do imho. It will make useless all the hard work we will do about collecting data and trying to decypher it. :)
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The given car (p, h, a) on any track (P, H, A) is faster if PHA (perfectly) fits better?
This is basic information - I think.
If this is not true, then it is a pity to meditate on it.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ December 30th 2018,15:06:49 ) Wear effect won't be put to shown PHA. Either the PHA speed effect would need much complication, or the PHA speed effect would become laughably easy to solve.
Understanding how something works doesn't make it easy to do. I understand the mechanisms of bodybuilding, but I'm not exactly Arnold Schwarzennegger.
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Max: You can still be a governor! (?) :)
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