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Téma: Retiring and Rejoining |
38 odpovědí
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#1 přispěno 16 Listopad 2019, 01:59:56 (naposledy změněno 16 Listopad 2019, 02:04:36 od Alex Holland)
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I have been thinking on this issue for some time. Many managers retire from the game but then come back later to find they are starting at ground zero. This does not make sense on many levels and I think it would be good for the game in many ways to allow the account to "Settle" over time but not go to zero. This would encourage old retired members to come back into the game and not face a complete reset. I think many do not come back just for that reason.
Some suggestions might be to let facilities and staff attributes to settle over time, such as dropping down for each season they miss much the same way that driver salaries drop over time if they are not signed. This way a Master level manager (for example)would retire for the game but his staff Experience, Technical Skills, money and so on would slowly drop over time. When a player decided to reenter the game instead of starting over completely, the game would calculate how far some of these attributes have dropped in their absence. It is not like a driver, owner etc would completely forget how to race over time. They would just get more rusty. This could just be a simple calculation the system does should a retired manager sign in and ask where his account has settled to.
I would suggest that their money stay where it was when they quit. Facilities would be sold off for some value and that added to the bank account. Anyone that was at amateur or higher level when they retired, would re-enter amateur level when they returned to not waste everyone's time in starting back at rookie. You could take their car and reduce it's effectiveness over time so a person leaving with a Level 6 car might come back to find it is level 4. Something on the lower end of a normal amateur car just so they had no advantage there.
I think the real benefit by doing some such "settling" of the account would be to encourage players to come back to the game and not have that wall of starting all over again facing them.
We currently have a team member who is leaving the game due to health issues and he has stated that he will not be back because he does not want to start the whole game over again. If his account had only settled over time I am betting he would be back. Heck you could link this to sponsor support that a person coming back in this fashion must buy at least one seasons supporter credits or they reset from ground zero.
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#2 přispěno 16 Listopad 2019, 03:01:22 (naposledy změněno 16 Listopad 2019, 03:09:04 od Stuart Foster)
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What would happen though if there were not enough people retiring in the incumbent amateur season for someone who pressed the 'reactivate account' button to return at amateur level for the next season? I havn't looked to see how many additional promotions currently reside from rookie to amateur, though I suppose if it was the case that not enough people were made retired from amateur then the number of AP's could just be scaled back from the previous season. I'm only mentioning that cos if we just say you can come back whenever, the game needs to be structured in such a way that makes it possible without having to add a 41st manager to a group or something.
I think it's a decent idea, but how you handle it is tricky. I think if we're going to do something like this, there'd have to be an agreed car level for starters. Example, all parts reactivated on level 4. And starting cash balance would probably have to be either 0 or a defined figure. Maybe 5m.
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#3 přispěno 16 Listopad 2019, 03:05:42
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Sounds pretty good idea.
Staff skills from 0 is huge loss
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#4 přispěno 16 Listopad 2019, 03:57:25
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An intriguing idea. It would provide a 'rest' period for a long term manager to regain the fire of competition.
As a temporarily retired manager that would be the sticking point, having to begin from nothing.
I don't think I would start again if I had to go from Rookie & Zero.
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#5 přispěno 16 Listopad 2019, 04:52:29
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it will not be fair for people who are just starting to climb or struggling to retain as auto save point in amateur will inflate the population in that division.
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#6 přispěno 16 Listopad 2019, 10:01:23
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Quote ( Jerome Manzon @ November 16th 2019,04:52:29 ) auto save point in amateur will inflate the population in that division.
It wouldn't if all returning retirees were not allowed to become 'reactivated' until the next season starts, and whereby each return causes a reduction in rookie AP's to account for their presence.
I agree it would be unfair for someone to trigger their return at any point during a season, it would have to be between seasons only that retirees could be reactivated in such a way without having to start over from scratch.
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#7 přispěno 16 Listopad 2019, 10:58:19 (naposledy změněno 16 Listopad 2019, 11:00:31 od Jerome Manzon)
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Quote ( Stuart Foster @ November 16th 2019,10:01:23 )
It wouldn't if all returning retirees were not allowed to become 'reactivated' until the next season starts, and whereby each return causes a reduction in rookie AP's to account for their presence. What??? So you are giving free retention to retirees? And then active people will go through the normal process where they relegate??? Then I can abuse it incase I am about to relagate, I will say I will retire, then I will play again once amateur spot is secured.
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#8 přispěno 16 Listopad 2019, 11:00:09
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You can't retire from Amateur, Jerome.
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#9 přispěno 16 Listopad 2019, 11:01:08 (naposledy změněno 16 Listopad 2019, 11:04:36 od Jerome Manzon)
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Quote ( Stuart Foster @ November 16th 2019,11:00:09 ) You can't retire from Amateur, Jerome. Oh yes people retire from amateur by missing races or sending PM to admins saying they will retire.
PLEASE READ THIS (Game Rules):
8.1 Inactivity and retiring from the game
Managers in Rookie who miss 3 consecutive races and who have done in total 0 GPRO races since they joined will be removed from the game immediately, otherwise they will be removed if they miss 5 consecutive races and if there are managers on the waiting list waiting for a free spot. At the end of the season managers in Amateur who didn't race in any of the last 6 races of the season, managers in Pro who didn't race in any of the last 9 races of the season, managers in Master who didn't race in any of the last 12 races of the season and managers in Elite who didn't race in any of the last 15 races of the season will be removed from the game before the next season starts. In case the need arises more players from Pro, Amateur and Rookie groups may be promoted in order to fill any free places in the higher groups.
It is also possible to request to be retired at the end of the season. This is possible only if you send a request to one of the administrators before the end of Race 15 of the ongoing season.
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Players in relegation spots would always have to be relegated regardless, to make room for normal promoted rookies, like normal, so I don't see it as an issue. I'd say the option should either only exist from Pro upwards, or in amateur limited to those who might happen to miss the obligatory number of races to trigger a retirement, and are at least in a retention spot at the end of a season. You can't actually elect to retire anyway anymore, there's no button for it, so loopholes can easily be closed by stipulating the above rules.
Quote ( Jerome Manzon @ November 16th 2019,11:01:08 ) It is also possible to request to be retired at the end of the season. This is possible only if you send a request to one of the administrators before the end of Race 15 of the ongoing season.
This is actually no longer the case buddy. The retirement button has been removed from account settings. All retirements now only occur by the missed races being triggered.
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Your logic is unfair my friend,
Imagine people struggling to retain and here you are giving opportunities to some. (whether it is applicable to Pro and above only, or master and above only or elite only.... you are still giving advantage to some, it will never be fair for those people who went through hardships just to promote to amateur or retain in amateur, automatic save point in amateur will never be fair)
Some people even go through "The next X managers that may promote if free spots are available (ordered by points)" just to promote... and then here you are securing a spot for retired managers.
Quote ( Stuart Foster @ November 16th 2019,11:07:59 ) You can't actually elect to retire anyway anymore, there's no button for it, so loopholes can easily be closed by stipulating the above rules. There is no button??? yes there is, send an email to admin stating you are retiring.
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Quote ( Jerome Manzon @ November 16th 2019,11:15:58 ) There is no button??? yes there is, send an email to admin stating you are retiring.
I'm not entirely sure why you're getting so excited about all this tbh. Let me repeat this
Quote ( Stuart Foster @ November 16th 2019,11:07:59 ) loopholes can easily be closed by stipulating the above rules
So, if someone triggers missed races to be retired in Elite, Master or Pro their account is frozen and they can return in Amateur.
If someone triggers missed races to be retired in Amateur their account is frozen if they were in at least a retained spot.
I certainly would have no problem with this stipulation. At the end of the day, if someone finishes in a relegation spot, they should always be relegated. If people finish in a relegation spot, I don't see it as unfair to deny them the same opportunity as someone who retained. You're argument is puzzling cos on the one hand you made a decent comment further up about a potential loophole, but now arguing the case that people who finish in a certain relegation spot shouldn't be treated differently....which I find peculiar tbh.
At the end of the day, everyone's job in any division is to secure their stay their first. If someone does that, I don't see a problem that their account can be frozen for a return with less money, and most likely a lower car level too. I think its a decent idea anyway from Alex but of course needs to be approached in the right way as I mentioned in my initial reply regarding how those players return to the game. :)
Quote ( Jerome Manzon @ November 16th 2019,11:15:58 ) Some people even go through "The next X managers that may promote if free spots are available (ordered by points)" just to promote... and then here you are securing a spot for retired managers.
There is a counter argument to be said that experienced players who go through the rookie cycle actually make the promotion process more difficult for newbies than it already is. Also, the additional promotion list is for players that failed to finish in the top 4, yes Top 4, of a rookie league. I wouldn't personally see it as a problem that returning players took up amateur spots before 5th place (and lower) rookies who might appear on the additional promotion list. But like I said in post number 2, how returning players re-enter at amateur is indeed tricky and needs to be approached correctly.
Anyway, when all is said and done, I think this is a good idea for people who have a real life need or commitment that is probably forgotten in the fog of all this discussion. So, nice post Alex.
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Quote ( Stuart Foster @ November 16th 2019,11:26:07 ) I'm not entirely sure why you're getting so excited about all this tbh. Let me repeat this My goodness, You are the one excited on this not me.
Quote ( Stuart Foster @ November 16th 2019,11:26:07 ) So, if someone triggers missed races to be retired in Elite, Master or Pro their account is frozen and they can return in Amateur.
If someone triggers missed races to be retired in Amateur their account is frozen if they were in at least a retained spot.
I certainly would have no problem with this stipulation. At the end of the day, if someone finishes in a relegation spot, they should always be relegated. If people finish in a relegation spot, I don't see it as unfair to deny them the same opportunity as someone who retained. You're argument is puzzling cos on the one hand you made a decent comment further up about a potential loophole, but now arguing the case that people who finish in a certain relegation spot shouldn't be treated differently....which I find peculiar tbh.
At the end of the day, everyone's job in any division is to secure their stay their first. If someone does that, I don't see a problem that their account can be frozen for a return with less money, and most likely a lower car level too. I think its a decent idea anyway from Alex but of course needs to be approached in the right way as I mentioned in my initial reply regarding how those players return to the game. :)
Quote ( Jerome Manzon @ November 16th 2019,11:15:58 )
Some people even go through "The next X managers that may promote if free spots are available (ordered by points)" just to promote... and then here you are securing a spot for retired managers.
There is a counter argument to be said that experienced players who go through the rookie cycle actually make the promotion process more difficult for newbies than it already is. Also, the additional promotion list is for players that failed to finish in the top 4, yes Top 4, of a rookie league. I wouldn't personally see it as a problem that returning players took up amateur spots before 5th place (and lower) rookies who might appear on the additional promotion list. But like I said in post number 2, how returning players re-enter at amateur is indeed tricky and needs to be approached correctly.
Anyway, when all is said and done, I think this is a good idea for people who have a real life need or commitment that is probably forgotten in the fog of all this discussion. So, nice post Alex.
For earth's sake do you even read what I posted??? I am tired of this repeating same thing you dont even understand.
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I'd say you're more interested in an argument than a a discussion in all honesty, which is a shame cos you're initial reply about closing off a certain loophole was a well made point. Let's agree to disagree and leave it there cos it's just not worth mine or your time any longer.
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#15 přispěno 16 Listopad 2019, 14:38:24 (naposledy změněno 16 Listopad 2019, 14:38:54 od Josh Clark)
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I actually like the idea of having to pay supporter credits (or buy a season's worth of credits) to resume staff untrainables.
An option for all, half or none of your untrainables wouldn't be a bad idea, at representative costs. It's not really pay2win as the manager already did the long grind for the stats. And I think a small fee to have the privelege of resuming them is perfectly reasonable.
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ November 16th 2019,14:38:24 ) I actually like the idea of having to pay supporter credits (or buy a season's worth of credits) to resume staff untrainables.
An option for all, half or none of your untrainables wouldn't be a bad idea, at representative costs. It's not really pay2win as the manager already did the long grind for the stats. And I think a small fee to have the privelege of resuming them is perfectly reasonable.
So a player in master is struggling and wants to build again from Amateur so he retires for season pays for a seasons credits and gets his untrainables back in amateur ..
Why should he ?
To me if this brought into force then staff/car /money should be set at the average for that group
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Paying for skills = pay to win. You really don't want to go that route, not even one step.
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GPRO supporter ÷ supporter. No pay to win. <------ On this game That's of the magic. ... and this is attractive.
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I would disagree with Josh about supporter status having an influence on any potential 'resumed' career at Amateur level. I think it opens it up as a kind of 'pay to win' (or at least pay and be saved of rookie restart).
I think its ok for managers to resume their career in amateur than restart in rookie under a determined stipulation regardless of supporter status. That stipulation could be that only managers who have at least promoted to Pro (and higher) can have their account 'resumed' in amateur from retirement or relegated to amateur from a higher level. Or it could even be that as long as you at least ended your last season up to your retirement in a retained amateur position that you can also do so.
I would say untrainables should be percentage dropped depending either how many levels you dropped to 'resume' from amateur, or the last league you were in if your account was made retired. So, if you elected to drop from Elite to Amateur, you maybe lose 40% of your untrainables. From Master, 30%, From Pro 25% and if you were previously in amateur at the point of retirement then 20%. Something like that...but this is just a suggestion. People might feel the drop should be greater.
Lastly, of course this is all very much dependent on how people generally feel. I would like to think most people would support it as long as its approached carefully and with consultation to the community on an agreed re-entry point for car and money. I think either a Level 3 or 4 car with either 0 or 5m balance. Of course it would mean that those players returning to amateur from either a higher level or from retired status would have to replace someone. Unless of course, Vlad dropped the amateur numbers to something like 38 or 39 per group meaning that anyone returning/dropping from a higher level for the next season has a space without one needing to be given up by either reducing additional promotions or automatic promotions from rookie.
I would also finally like to mention that you should not be allowed to elect to retire from amateur if you finish the season in an amateur relegation spot. Jerome did make a valid point about that further up, and I certainly agree with it, else people could potentially declare a retirement from amateur and then resume from amateur when they should rightly be relegated instead.
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"inherit" account (also) starts out amateur: Great. :(
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I've been there and I like the idea with regard to staff untrainables only. A drop by 10 caused by "R" and value of 1 or 2 for every missed season could work out.
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From what I understand, the main issue managers have with starting back from rookie out of retirement is the loss of untrainables. Sure there are other inconveniences, but those are incomparable to the grind required to max out your untrainables, something which may take dozens of seasons to do or more. This doesn't just affect returning managers but new managers and those returning to rookie as well. The untrainables system is something lots of managers would like to see changed in some way (including myself), and there has been discussion about that in several other threads.
If the game allowed for retired managers to rejoin the game from amateur with their untrainables at least partly intact, then it would alleviate that disadvantage of returning to the game. However it would mean that more managers in Ama and above have high untrainables, which only increases the disadvantage to new players or those who have found themselves returning to rookie as now there is an even larger discrepancy between their own untrainables and the group average. As a manager who has been at a disadvantage in terms of staff untrainables working my way through the tiers, I don't see how putting someone like myself at an even greater disadvantage helps the game. Pretty much every suggestion at reforming untrainables (such as placing tier caps that come into effect when relegating) would seek to diminish this disadvantage, so I don't think I'm alone on this one.
In terms of fairness, it would also disadvantage those players who have just recently rejoined the game and started again from rookie. If this proposal were implemented it would punish them for not waiting to return until it was implemented, and in so doing I believe it could drive a lot of them away from the game. The proposal also has the potential to be exploited at a way to do an ama-reset from the higher tiers, which is not what the purpose of retirement is for and could become a numerical issue with the amount of people rejoining in amateur. This could be reduced by requiring a full season away from the game, but it would still happen occasionally as it would reduce the time to get back to ama from elite and remove the frustration of consecutive relegation seasons. This increase in "retirements" would then lead to more additional promotions occurring in ama and pro, which are often disliked for ruining manager's plans with little warning.
This is a topic on ama-resets, which I think has certain parallels to this topic. To those who haven't read it before, I suggest you do, it is interesting: /gb/forum/ViewTopic.asp?TopicId=26542&Page=2
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#23 přispěno 17 Listopad 2019, 01:48:24 (naposledy změněno 17 Listopad 2019, 01:57:08 od Alex Holland)
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Some points to consider. Maybe comment on only 1-2 of these points.
This would not be to allow managers to simply reset from a high level to a low level. That is a different issue.
This would be for players who left the game for at least a number of seasons (How many is good?) who then wanted to rejoin the game but not start from zero. I would suggest this should only be for players who have missed at least 3 if not 5 seasons away from the game. Maybe more. Also the player must have been at PRO or above for this to be acceptable.
The game is stronger if we can bring more players into the game. When we block players from coming back it hurts the game overall. Players who need 30 seasons to regain their old untrainables is one of those barriers. I would guess that 75% of players do not return because they do not want to start all over again.
Promotions would occur as normal and players coming back would be added in after all normal promotions occurred. This would fall under "Additional Promotions" section of the game. That way no one playing would be bumped by an returning player. If there was no room, they might have to wait another season or to a point where someone in a AM racing group has missed a significant number of races (6-7-8?) and should be pushed out anyhow. The player would then come back part way through the season. This second point could be dropped as well.
Dropping an Elite player into Rookie is essentially bumping the 4th rookie promoter back to rookie. I am sure no rookies like to see an old Elite player land in their race group.
Players coming back should have resources at the lower end of the racing group they come back in. If that is Amateur (AM) I would suggest an Level 4 (L4) car. Facilities, money, etc should all reflect the lower end of whatever racing group the person dropped into. Perhaps the programming could look at the race groups Facilities/Car and give the person 25% of the group average for these items. Money would be similarly handled or a basic $10M start point.
Dropping from Elite to AM takes 51 races you have to sandbag. People who have not dropped from Elite to AM might not understand just how boring it is to drop 51 races and season breaks before they can restart racing. In any case this is not about players dropping but players who have left the game for some reason and are returning again after some "longer" period of time. Not just 1 season away as a quick way of dropping down.
The reason I put in supporter credits for a season is again to help the game, instead of the players. The game runs on a thin edge financially...Ask Vlad. If a person did not pay the supporter credits they could always start as a new rookie but I think that hurts the rookie class myself and 6.8 credits is not a huge amount of money to pay for anyone coming back.
Realistically if Michael Schumacher took a season off of F1 and came back, he would not get to race back at the top until he had qualified in a lower racing level. However at the same time he would not have lost all his racing skills, have zero financial backing, no technical experience. He would be a bit rusty on the newest changes and that could be reflected in lower untrainables, facilties, money etc.
A final point. Retention of some untrainables is not that big a deal. Untrainables do not effect the game as much as many in the lower levels would think. Having some untrainables retained is not a huge advantage but they do take upwards of 30 seasons to build to 100.
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So im not one who takes part in too many forums, but this is an interesting one for me, especially being an old team mate to Alex
i reached master 3x and everytime i hit the wall and had to drop back to re group, like Alex said it was about 8 months to rebuild and make my way back to where i felt i belonged in this game , back to master.
after my 3rd attempt and dropping back down again, i decided the rebuuild phase just wasnt worth the time and effort.
i retired for 8 seasons, with no thought of ever returning, then 1 day i decided to give this game another try.
so here i am, 2nd season in ama and looking like i can promote back to pro.
although my account is reset, its such a joy to be "winning again", being happy with my "rise" and just generally enjoying playing the game again.
i lost that completely in the "rebuilding phase".
anyway my point is, having to just login to put your car on the grid twice a week for 8 months is not fun, its just a chore 1 could do without.
So im back, playing and enjoying this again and if i hit the wall in master again, im pretty sure i will retire for a year and restart from rookie again rather than do the frustrating chore for a further 8months....
resetting has given me the chance to enjoy the game again, rather than just be upset and pissed for 8 months....
The enjoyment i have out weighs the lost staff etc on my account
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- Sorry if someone has said something similar (all these English is too much for me)
...My Simply Opinion:
1. It's impossible and unfair to Brake the Rule. (Everything in Rookies go to Zero.)
2. But we can Make That Simple:
...When a Re-Entry Manager Promoted in AMA (win Back His Old Skills in Staff with Double Speed.!!!
...When the Manager Promoted in PRO ...win Skills with TRIPLE Speed.!!! (until to OLD of course)
- I Don't Know if THAT its Fair Enough,
...But to return to your previous state 1/3 of the time its a good Motivation.-
Good Sunday from Sithonia.!!!
:)
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Quote ( Stephen Cakebread @ November 17th 2019,04:50:06 ) and if i hit the wall in master again, im pretty sure i will retire for a year and restart from rookie again rather than do the frustrating chore for a further 8months....
IF that happens (hit a wall) another possibility would be to stay in Pro :)
Its' not mandatory to do "chore" of Months and go to amateur, it is possible to build, rebuild or just have fun at other levels too :)
If you feel that you would belong in Master, you could regroup in Pro too
Just something to think about (in that^^ context by "you" I mean people in general)
Quote ( Stephen Cakebread @ November 17th 2019,04:50:06 ) The enjoyment i have
That's the spirit, nice to have you back
btw: IF I was ever to go back to amateur, it would not be for regrouping or anything like that, but for another reason completely. There is a feature now which wasn't when I was there last, but thus far I just haven't cared about it :)
Quote ( George Slater @ November 16th 2019,19:15:59 ) From what I understand, the main issue managers have with starting back from rookie out of retirement is the loss of untrainables. Sure there are other inconveniences, but those are incomparable to the grind required to max out your untrainables, something which may take dozens of seasons to do or more
yes indeed. I'd think people would like to have at least something to show for from the (potentially) years they've put in and not have it all wiped out in a single blow.
Everything else is just inconsequential inconvenience which can be acquired back with relative ease compared to untrainables
Quote ( George Slater @ November 16th 2019,19:15:59 ) If the game allowed for retired managers to rejoin the game from amateur with their untrainables at least partly intact, then it would alleviate that disadvantage of returning to the game. However it would mean that more managers in Ama and above have high untrainables, which only increases the disadvantage to new players or those who have found themselves returning to rookie as now there is an even larger discrepancy between their own untrainables and the group average.
They should not be allowed to rejoin from amateur, because...
Quote ( George Slater @ November 16th 2019,19:15:59 ) The proposal also has the potential to be exploited at a way to do an ama-reset from the higher tiers, which is not what the purpose of retirement is for and could become a numerical issue with the amount of people rejoining in amateur.
So let's simplify. If one want's to retire and later rejoin, go to rookie.
But maybe at least a part of the untrainables could be kept. After all, they don't make all that much of a difference in rookie/amateur, but as said earlier some people may have already put potentially a long time in it, so... maybe they could be allowed to keep "some"
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I rather like Ioannis' solution.
How about the max level of untrainables achieved before retirement be stored when a manager retires. And if the manager ever decides to rejoin, they gain untrainables at 4x the normal speed until they hit their previously attained levels and see normal growth from then onwards. Brings down the number of seasons taken to rebuild untrainables to a much more reasonable 7-10 seasons.
TBH, the rate at which untrainables increase should be increased 4x for everyone.
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An experienced manager has some knowledge to the game, that's enough to climb up the categories again. Keeping untrainables along with all the experience those managers already have would make a much bigger barrier for new managers to promote.
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#29 přispěno 22 Listopad 2019, 03:14:20 (naposledy změněno 22 Listopad 2019, 03:22:18 od Alex Holland)
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Quote ( Renato Dell @ November 18th 2019,21:28:37 ) An experienced manager has some knowledge to the game, that's enough to climb up the categories again. Keeping untrainables along with all the experience those managers already have would make a much bigger barrier for new managers to promote.
I understand your first point but disagree with the second. Anyone playing against the "more knowledgeable" managers are already facing this competition if they stay in the game. The object of this was to increase the number of managers who leave the game and are thinking about whether it is worth it to start all over. Many do not because of this "starting all over again".
I am not pointing to you in particular but I see a lot of comments from people who do not want these managers back with their untrainables, because they see it as harming "their" game. This would argue that the game is better off if these managers do not return because that is what is happening right now. I am trying to benefit the game in both players and revenues which I feel will ultimately improve the game. As many of us that have played the game until our untrainables get to 100 know, the untrainables do not add that much to the players ability. People who are in fear of these being given back are often those who have much lower untrainables and might not have a good feel for what they add...which is little.
That begs the question that if they are not worth that much why care. It is as much as perception of how long a person once spent on the game and now has to face starting all over again. Ask your favorite top player if they had to leave the game and start all over again, if they would...I bet 80% say no. Once we are gone, we are gone for good.
Sometimes we need to look outside of what is good for us personally but better for the whole group and admins as well. This is why I suggested the untrainables might get linked to a season of supporter credits to get them back right away as one point but brought up this issue as a point worth discussing
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Be allot simpler to get rid of untrainables completely or for example use a combination of driver & tech director abilities to make a input instead. This would alleviate said fear of retirement and returning, if it’s deemed necessary that is!
or keep it as it is, as it is simple.
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