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Thema: Russia has attacked Ukraine! |
18311 Antworten
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Quote ( Jimmy De Roy @ July 12th 2022,10:33:32 ) That is something that occured to me in the last 2 years more precise since covid, people believe everything they read in the newspapers or hear on the tv news without asking qeustions, most are just behaving like sheep. when they say it on tv it has to be true.
Don't think that's true really. We are well past the point of people simply believing what they read or see.
We live in a far more dangerous time where people will find anything that will back up what they want to believe - no matter how vague, disingenuous or flat out incorrect the content they can find is - and hold it up as gospel. And there's enough mischievous types out there to give those people exactly what they want, to their own ends.
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Quote ( Lee Ifans @ July 12th 2022,19:51:13 )
We live in a far more dangerous time where people will find anything that will back up what they want to believe - no matter how vague, disingenuous or flat out incorrect the content they can find is - and hold it up as gospel Well, you probably don't consider yourself that kind of person.
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Quote ( Konstantin Sobolev @ July 12th 2022,19:36:47 ) Quote ( Serhiy Cherkasov @ July 12th 2022,19:16:28 )
"The majority, the overwhelming majority..."
And can I find out a list of those who did not call for an end to Russia's aggression? And a list of those who do not condemn Russia.)
Before that, you said that the whole world condemned, with the exception of North Korea, Syria and Nicaragua, but these countries are not members of the G20.
I can't figure it out myself. Our Internet is blocked, and only Putin's speeches are shown on TV. Refraining from condemning Russia's aggression are those countries that benefit from buying energy from Russia at half the price. These are China, India, Brazil.
Waging war requires money. This is why Russia is selling the country's wealth at a big discount. Russians are very proud of the country's natural resources and do not want them to be taken over by Western countries. Meanwhile, Putin is selling the resources of China and India for nothing. Huge territories of Siberia were leased to China!
Let me remind you that most Russian villages are not gasified and have never seen asphalted roads.
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The European Space Agency (ESA) has terminated cooperation with Roscosmos in projects to study Mars, said ESA Director Josef Aschbacher.
"The Board of Directors has instructed me to officially terminate the currently suspended cooperation with Roscosmos on the ExoMars Rover and Surface Platform mission," he said.
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#7322 geschrieben Jul 12 2022, 20:41:03 (letzte Änderung Jul 12 2022, 20:41:16 von Lee Ifans)
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Quote ( Konstantin Sobolev @ July 12th 2022,19:55:30 ) Well, you probably don't consider yourself that kind of person.
I'm happy with who I am. I don't think that makes what I said any more or less accurate.
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Quote ( Serhiy Cherkasov @ July 12th 2022,20:36:13 ) The European Space Agency (ESA) has terminated cooperation with Roscosmos in projects to study Mars, said ESA Director Josef Aschbacher.
"The Board of Directors has instructed me to officially terminate the currently suspended cooperation with Roscosmos on the ExoMars Rover and Surface Platform mission," he said. I suspect that this is a response to Russia's sanctions against the Kourou cosmodrome in Guiana. Did you write about this news or did you miss it?)
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Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 11th 2022,14:49:25 ) OMG, are there really such naive people who believe in this nonsense?
Indeed, yet here you show up with your blaring naivety, pasting masses of one sided links.
Some would call t propaganda...
Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 11th 2022,14:49:25 ) Have people forgotten how to read books and think critically?
Capitalism is working fine with socialism, here in Denmark, although imo, they should cap it better....
Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 11th 2022,14:49:25 ) Read books, develop your critical thinking, learn to think independently, and not repeat the imposed propaganda. Live in the real (Russian) world, not in the world of pink ponies.
I'm quite pleased with my happy and sweet western pink ponies. :)
I'll take that over the murky unhappy looking Russian mule, any day of thee week.
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Addresses of bomb shelters for Muscovites, where they will need to hide in the event of a nuclear strike on the capital, - classified information
Due to the fact that #state propaganda and individual #deputies periodically threaten foreign states with nuclear strikes, it is obvious that the risk of retaliatory strikes against Moscow is increasing. I asked the government of the capital for the addresses of bomb shelters in the areas of residence of my voters - Nekrasovka, Kosino-Ukhtomsky, Novokosino, Vykhino-Zhulebino, Veshnyaki.
According to the answer of the Deputy Mayor of Moscow Biryukov, information about the addresses of protective structures is a state secret. That is, where we can hide in case of emergency, he refused to tell. It is terrible to imagine what such "secrecy" can lead to, when at X hour no one will know where to go.
We will ask the prosecutor's office to check both the facilities and their mysterious "secrecy"
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Germany will completely stop buying Russian coal on August 1, and Russian oil from December 31, German Deputy Finance Minister Jörg Kukis said, Reuters reports.
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In March, when we were discussing the supply of weapons to Ukraine, some moralists, as well as "witnesses to the sect of appeasement of the aggressor", laughed in my face, expressing frank bewilderment - how the supply of weapons to Ukraine will help stop the war - this is a clear example.
https://t.me/voynareal/28020
On the left is a map of shelling for July 8, on the right - after the destruction of Russian warehouses on July 12. The number of shellings has decreased tenfold.
Of course, pinpoint strikes on warehouses over the past two weeks will not stop the war yet - but I think that now skeptics in offices of various importance - Brussels and Washington, will clearly have fewer arguments against supplying Ukraine with longer-range weapons.
The destruction of the Crimean bridge will soon make it possible to de-occupy the south of the country, close the exit from the Crimea and get close to Mariupol from the west. In addition, some officials in Washington are loudly saying that these weapons should be used on the territory of Russia - the destruction of warehouses and military infrastructure are legitimate targets for Ukraine.
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Quote ( Niels Van Heijster @ July 11th 2022,15:41:41 ) Just a missed opportunity that by the looks of it, you've listed only or at least mostly books that seem to have an anti-western POV.
To form a balanced and well informed opinion, one should best read up on multiple POV's ... ! But that could just be me ...
Of course, this list is incomplete. I have given these names in order to contrast the naive ideas that the Western world is only happiness and prosperity.
I also know about the positive aspects.
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Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,10:50:58 ) I have given these names in order to contrast the naive ideas that the Western world is only happiness and prosperity.
I note that you reacted, quite condescendingly - with your OMG, to my separate message, which was written for completely different and reasons in a different context. It doesn't show well the "breadth of your mind" as Jimmy claimed.
My position is that life in Europe, with all its shortcomings, is much better than life in Russia, under conditions of, in fact, totalitarian power, which can give its people nothing but life under sanctions and import substitution. Ukraine has chosen a side and is now paying a heavy price to defend its choice. Everything else - an attempt to throw at this choice - the shadow of a deal with the devil.
p.s. And if you followed this topic a little, you would understand that I am quite skeptical about the topic of "full happiness and prosperity in Europe and more - in US".
But I perfectly understand how Ukraine can transform its life and society in conditions that bring us closer to Europe - geopolitics.
In this regard, I have a serious question for you - what can today's Russia give to Ukraine - in the sense of why the Ukrainian people need to support Russia's attempt to free us from the pro-european junta?
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Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,10:50:58 ) I also know about the positive aspects.
Do you?
Where is Russia on that list?
https://edition.cnn.com/travel/article/worlds-happiest-count...
The world's happiest countries, 2022 edition
1. Finland
2. Denmark
3. Iceland
4. Switzerland
5. Netherlands
6. Luxembourg
7. Sweden
8. Norway
9. Israel
10. New Zealand
11. Austria
12. Australia
13. Ireland
14. Germany
15. Canada
16. United States
17. United Kingdom
18. Czechia (Czech Republic)
19. Belgium
20. France
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ July 13th 2022,11:02:19 ) My position is that life in Europe, with all its shortcomings, is much better than life in Russia, under conditions of, in fact, totalitarian power, which can give its people nothing but life under sanctions and import substitution. Ukraine has chosen a side and is now paying a heavy price to defend its choice. Everything else - an attempt to throw at this choice - the shadow of a deal with the devil.
Well that is something you can't force on people.
What i mean is you can be happy with it, your neighbour might not be happy with it. Other then that until you lived like we do for years (in my case since i was born) it is possible that you won't be happy anymore either, it is impossible for me to think life in Russia, Ukraine, China or anywhere else would be better or worse then mine until i have experienced it and then again it differs from person to person. If people present you a perfect green apple, never forget it has bruises somewhere because it is never perfect. happiness is something that differs for every person. Loads of people where unhappy with the confinment during covid, i wasn't i started to ride my bicycle again and i lost 15kg of weight again, i am sure without covid and pubs closed i would not have started cycling again.
I know with what i posted over the last days it seems like i am very unhappy, i am happy with my live but there are things governments in western europe could handle in a better way.
Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ July 13th 2022,11:02:19 ) I note that you reacted, quite condescendingly - with your OMG, to my separate message, which was written for completely different and reasons in a different context. It doesn't show well the "breadth of your mind" as Jimmy claimed.
Well i can tell you one thing the way someone behaves online (this forum or others) is sometimes totally different to the way the act in real life, i am probably the best example when i attended my first GPRO meeting Vladimir A and Stefan were surprised about how i was in real life because on here i was one ban away from a perma ban and there i was a friendly funny person. You can't judge a person based on his online posts.
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Quote ( Jimmy De Roy @ July 13th 2022,11:24:23 ) I know with what i posted over the last days it seems like i am very unhappy, i am happy with my live but there are things governments in western europe could handle in a better way.
I understand this very well, wanting the best and having different views is the cornerstone of european life and worldview.
And now contrast your current feeling - to the feeling of any Ukrainian who has been literally busy surviving all these years - after all, the income was only enough to pay for eat and to pay for housing - probably 90 percent of the population lived like that . And as soon as everything began to improve for us, Russia attacked us in 2014.
Therefore, Ukraine's path to Europe is not a utopian chance to get rid of all problems at once - it is a pragmatic step - to reduce the number of those who need it to an acceptable figure in civilized countries - to build a middle class in society that will ensure its prosperity. I have already written many times - the path to the EU is a catalyst for internal changes, its value is that with your help we will be able to build such an internal system of government that can ensure that we eliminate many obstacles on the way to economic dew. Everyone will benefit from this - both Ukraine and the EU.
Regarding the difference of views. Ukraine is now in such a position that it has only a rough choice - to remain in the sphere of influence of Russia and vegetate in poverty (because Russia with its super-income cannot build a normal life at self home) or return to the European family. And we will have such a luxury as support for neoliberalism, conservatism or some other direction after we finally integrate into the European family, from which we were torn out many years ago. Then this pluralism of opinions will become possible regarding whether it is necessary to support the conditional Catholics and how to communicate with the neighbor after that :)
In the meantime, the Ukrainian people are united - Ukraine is part of the European community, Russia must get out of all our territories, and normalization of relations is possible only after it recognizes its guilt, conviction of those responsible and payment of compensation.
Quote ( Jimmy De Roy @ July 13th 2022,11:24:23 ) You can't judge a person based on his online posts.
As you can see, I don't care too much about what other people think of me. I know my own worth, I know what I'm right about and where it's better to remain silent. I have surrounded myself with people who appreciate this directness and are ready to speak out just as directly in return. Therefore, I am not trying to form an opinion about Vladimir as a person, I am giving an assessment of his messages and part of his worldview, which he himself decided to open.
In this regard, it would be very interesting if he answered my question above, for example.
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My company has today delivered over 2000 euros worth of aid,food and clothes to Poland which will be delivered to people in need of support during these terrible times.
I pray it will end soon
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ July 13th 2022,11:43:29 ) And now contrast your current feeling - to the feeling of any Ukrainian who has been literally busy surviving all these years - after all, the income was only enough to pay for eat and to pay for housing - probably 90 percent of the population lived like that . And as soon as everything began to improve for us, Russia attacked us in 2014.
And here i need to correct you, i don't think any of us (you or me) want to feed the people in Belgium/europe who have a job but have to scrape to be able to buy food at the end of the month. There are people who work for less then 1500 euro a month, take house rent from that 600-1000 euro, electricity and gas at the current rates, and foodprices going up.
At that point i very well understand Vladimir's point when he says that it is not so prosperous either, every system has it flaws in the ideal world we would have the best of both parts (russian/western) alas we don't live in an ideal world and we will never live in such a world well at least not in my lifetime.
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ July 11th 2022,16:44:05 ) Some of the literature you offer is not just an anti-Western stance - it is a fierce mixture of conspiracy theories and fantasies of the writers themselves.
Therefore, I prefer to use "raw" materials - reports of official organizations, individual facts that can be put together into a big picture, and so on, and draw my own conclusions based on them.
And what you offer is the opinions of either non-names or frank marginals.
Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ July 11th 2022,16:44:05 ) And here is a review of Perkins' work.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/0...
This man is a frothing conspiracy theorist, a vainglorious peddler of nonsense, and yet his book, "Confessions of an Economic Hit Man," is a runaway bestseller. So now, out of concern for thousands of sufferers across this great nation, I offer up a Perkins antidote. If you see someone reading him, I want you to be prudent, approach cautiously and wait until the victim's fevers cool. Then administer these arguments.
LOL, the person declares that he does not believe the opinions of other people, but in the next sentence uses the opinion of other person to confirm his point of view. That's all you need to know about his beliefs.
I know plenty of people who, depending on what they need to prove, use only facts that are appropriate to the case. The rest of the facts will be completely ignored or rejected, labeling them like a conspiracy theory. He totally ignored dozens of positive reviews of Perkins’ book: https://www.amazon.com/New-Confessions-Economic-Hit-Man/dp/1...
Let's look at the facts and evaluate how wonderful capitalist society is.
1. The change in industrial production for June 2022 compared to 2000. China (+791%), India (+196%), Russia (+99%), Germany (+14%), USA (+10%), UK (+5%), France (-10%), Japan (-12%), Italy (-18%).
“Totalitarian” China under the leadership of the Communist Party has a much higher economic growth rate. And how does the civilized Western world respond? Declares China a threat to the world, imposes sanctions against its companies.
2. Financial report of U.S. Government 2021
https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/reports-statements/financial...
Revenue $4256 bln, Net cost $ 7351 bln, Deficit $ 3095 bln (Interest expenses excluded)
Projected unsecured liabilities for the next 75 years are $ 97.6 trln (Interest expenses excluded)
“The current fiscal path is unsustainable.”
How does the US react to this situation? Does everything to capture new markets for its products. US is doing everything to force Europe to abandon its long-term cooperation in the energy sector with Russia and replace it with its own LNG (at a market price). To force Europe to buy its weapons for astronomical sums that will bring hundreds of billions of income to their coffers. That's how free markets work. :)
I would also be interested to get acquainted with the facts that confirm the validity of the military interventions of Western countries in Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan.
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ July 13th 2022,11:23:35 ) Do you?
Where is Russia on that list?
"according to World Happiness Report rankings based largely on life evaluations from the Gallup World Poll"
Please provide a methodology for calculating this index. Without this, it is impossible to judge how correctly this list was compiled. Personally, I have seen many similar lists and the rating in them was completely different.
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ July 13th 2022,11:43:29 ) Russia attacked us in 2014.
That's a lie. In 2014, a coup d'etat was carried out in Ukraine with the active participation of the United States. Secretary of State at the time Victoria Nuland admitted that they spent $5 billion on it. The eastern part of Ukraine refused to recognize the new government and a military operation began against them. Russia provided assistance to the eastern regions of Ukraine, which they wanted to suppress with the help of the army. The only thing Russia wanted was a peaceful solution to the issues of coexistence of people in Ukraine. In 2015, the Minsk Agreements were signed between the warring parties in Ukraine. Russia, France and Germany were the guarantors of the implementation of these agreements. These agreements were also approved by the UN Security Council. But for 7 years they have not been fulfilled. Moreover, sanctions were imposed on Russia for "non-compliance" with the Minsk agreements. Although Russia had no obligations under this document. Official Kiev was not going to resolve the issue peacefully. For all 7 years, shelling of uncontrolled territories was carried out, during this time 14 thousand civilians were killed in the Donbas. There are hundreds of eyewitness accounts of these events. Here is an example: https://youtu.be/kDcZE9iAoiE
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Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:13:24 ) Please provide a methodology for calculating this index.
Citizens are polled on their happiness... to rate it.
Pretty simple... but shows the average happiness rating of the countries ;)
There are various versions of these polls, but the results are more or less the same.
But, what are you here defending?
Putin?
Russia in general?
Russia's unilateral attack on Ukraine?
Russia's war crimes in said war?
Pretty shit position you put yourself in, if you defend the above.
Are you a POS, like Konstantin and Dmitry, or are you more of a decent human being?
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Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:07:23 ) LOL, the person declares that he does not believe the opinions of other people, but in the next sentence uses the opinion of other person to confirm his point of view. That's all you need to know about his beliefs.
It was an easy and accessible way to demonstrate my beliefs without typing thousands of characters. Below, in a conversation with Jimmy, I expressed my own opinion about this book and others like it in a little more detail. Also I said that I know her, so the opinion about her was formed long before yours "LOL"
Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:07:23 ) I know plenty of people who, depending on what they need to prove, use only facts that are appropriate to the case. The rest of the facts will be completely ignored or rejected, labeling them like a conspiracy theory. He totally ignored dozens of positive reviews of Perkins’ book
I didn’t ignore it, I didn’t bring it your attention, since I don’t agree with most of these reviews, and some individuals on the Amazon list are completely disgusting. I represent my position, i'm not an encyclopedia.
Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:07:23 ) Let's look at the facts and evaluate how wonderful capitalist society is.
You take as facts - percentages - relative values - and present this as an example that you are right. It might work with school kids, but we're adults here.
And in general - trying to prove that the capitalist mode of production has flaws - is to say the obvious things, the same thing - how to call Putin - a dickhead - obvious things. Therefore, Captain Obviousness, I asked you to answer me on another - less obvious question in message 7329.
Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:07:23 ) US is doing everything to force Europe to abandon its long-term cooperation in the energy sector with Russia and replace it with its own LNG (at a market price).
It is strange that in a market economy someone tries to sell resources at a market price. Is it true?
It's only Russia that offers cheap resources just like that, out of the kindness of a cheap one, without trying to gain political influence on the country it has torn.
If your country cannot be integrated into a market macroeconomy and does not know how to play by the rules (albeit not completely transparent), then it will be squeezed out of these markets by American LNG, Kazakh, Turkish and African pipeline gas. Russia has lost a huge market share and will continue to lose it in the future.
Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:07:23 ) To force Europe to buy its weapons for astronomical sums that will bring hundreds of billions of income to their coffers.
I wonder how the US would have managed to "force" Europe to buy its expensive weapons if Russia had not invaded Ukraine. I see you also have problems with cause and effect relationships.
Only after the start of this war, Europe realized that it was actually not protected from such aggression and began to make forced but correct movements. Germany has where to spend 100 billion dollars, but thanks to Russia, she will spend them on defense.
And one more thing - American and European weapons (yes, there are also manufacturers in Europe who compete with the United States) show their high effectiveness against Russian, "noanalog" weapons.
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Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:32:58 ) That's a lie. In 2014, a coup d'etat was carried out in Ukraine with the active participation of the United States.
And you say, "a man of broad views." This russian is broked, bring another.
I hope it's even clearer now when I say that almost all Russians are the same when it comes to Ukraine. This message contains all, without exception, the key narratives of Russia, which we have repeatedly discussed here. Which led her to the beginning of this war.
Your little special operation with Jimmy - failed - instead of a "man of broad views" I see another "quilted jacket", who repeats everything that has been on the agenda in Russia over these eight years.
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ July 13th 2022,11:02:19 ) I have a serious question for you - what can today's Russia give to Ukraine - in the sense of why the Ukrainian people need to support Russia's attempt to free us from the pro-european junta?
My opinion most likely does not coincide with the opinions of other people. All people think differently. If this question is really important, then I recommend going to Crimea and asking ordinary people on the streets if they want to live in Russia or want to return back to Ukraine, which is coming soon (I hope so) will become a new member of the EU. Then you can publish the opinion of the majority of people in Crimea in this forum.
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Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:07:23 ) Let's look at the facts and evaluate how wonderful capitalist society is. 1. The change in industrial production for June 2022 compared to 2000. China (+791%), India (+196%), Russia (+99%), Germany (+14%), USA (+10%), UK (+5%), France (-10%), Japan (-12%), Italy (-18%). “Totalitarian” China under the leadership of the Communist Party has a much higher economic growth rate. And how does the civilized Western world respond? Declares China a threat to the world, imposes sanctions against its companies. 2. Financial report of U.S. Government 2021 https://www.fiscal.treasury.gov/reports-statements/financial... Revenue $4256 bln, Net cost $ 7351 bln, Deficit $ 3095 bln (Interest expenses excluded) Projected unsecured liabilities for the next 75 years are $ 97.6 trln (Interest expenses excluded) “The current fiscal path is unsustainable.” How does the US react to this situation? Does everything to capture new markets for its products. US is doing everything to force Europe to abandon its long-term cooperation in the energy sector with Russia and replace it with its own LNG (at a market price). To force Europe to buy its weapons for astronomical sums that will bring hundreds of billions of income to their coffers. That's how free markets work. :) I would also be interested to get acquainted with the facts that confirm the validity of the military interventions of Western countries in Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan.
Could you please provide methodology on why the change of industrial production for June 2022 compared to 2000 is the "index of capitalist society"?
How this change of industrial production is measured? Units? Money terms? If money terms then which currency? Why 2000 is a good base year?
Why are you looking at 2021 deficit? Why are you not providing something like deficit to GDP ratio that is available in a source like this (or use any other reliable source) https://www.thebalance.com/us-deficit-by-year-3306306 ? How does it compare to other countries, including Russia?
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ July 13th 2022,14:42:48 ) Citizens are polled on their happiness... to rate it.
Pretty simple... but shows the average happiness rating of the countries ;)
Ok, where I can see the poll questions and statistics of answers for all these countries?
Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ July 13th 2022,14:42:48 ) But, what are you here defending?
I'm discussing specific words. It is interesting to note that people have double standards. When it is profitable for them to defend the correctness of their actions, and in absolutely the same situation (but when others do it) they begin to condemn them.
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Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:55:54 ) My opinion most likely does not coincide with the opinions of other people.
Great answer, you can immediately see that you are open to communication. I'm not asking you how your opinion coincides with the opinion of others, I was wondering what you think about this.
Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:55:54 ) If this question is really important, then I recommend going to Crimea and asking ordinary people on the streets if they want to live in Russia or want to return back to Ukraine, which is coming soon (I hope so) will become a new member of the EU.
I know their opinion, I also know the opinion of the Crimean Tatars - the indigenous population of Crimea. But since Crimea is Ukraine, people who, after its liberation, express a desire to live in Russia, will go to Russia.
In general, the issue of Crimea has been discussed a lot here and, if you are at least a little objective, you should understand that Russia does not have the slightest right to Crimea, as well as to any other occupied part of Ukraine.
Using your logic, I can then ask - what the hell is Russia doing in Kherson and other occupied territories now, if the local population and all of Ukraine made it clear that you are occupiers and no one is going to recognize your power.
Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:55:54 ) will become a new member of the EU.
This will not happen soon, definitely not earlier than 2030-2035, unfortunately.
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Quote ( Vladimir Islentiev @ July 13th 2022,14:32:58 ) That's a lie. In 2014, a coup d'etat was carried out in Ukraine with the active participation of the United States. Secretary of State at the time Victoria Nuland admitted that they spent $5 billion on it.
I will take this out separately to show how much Vladimir tries to manipulate such general statements in order to promote their (Russian) narratives.
So - we have the claim that the US spent $5 billion to support the Revolution of Dignity in Ukraine in 2014 - this is claimed by Volodymyr, in the message I quote.
Fact: "The United States has invested about $5 billion in Ukraine since 1991, when it became an independent state again after the collapse of the Soviet Union. This money has been spent to support the aspirations of the Ukrainian people, who want a strong, democratic government that represents his interests," Nuland said. "But, of course, we did not spend money to support the Maidan. It was a spontaneous movement, which is very different from what Russia is doing now in eastern Ukraine," she added.
Later, Academician of the Russian Academy of Sciences and Advisor to the President of the Russian Federation Sergei Glazyev said that the development of events in Ukraine was largely provoked by the United States and other NATO members. He cited Nuland's data on multi-billion dollar aid. In turn, Nuland called the academician's statements "fantasy."
I would like to note that all this time Ukraine has also enjoyed EU grant support for the development of democracy - these are normal processes that all countries that aspire to join the EU have to go through.
Twisting facts, taking them out of context, attributing actions, and so on, is a common practice of Russian propaganda, which Vladimir is trying to use here.
As I said - you will not fucking succeed, in times when there is an Internet and you can check every statement. Shame on you Vladimir. Therefore, the attitude towards the majority of Russians should be the same - you see a Russian - cross the other side of the street, otherwise you will have to listen to how Ukraine "bombed the Donbass for eight years." It's disgusting.
p.s. I already gave this example, that in Ukraine the democracy index was quite high - at the level of Estonia, Slovenia due to changes since 2004. Then a pro-Russian president came to power and this level began to fall, and then Russia attacked us in 2014 and since then it has been at a stable level, but lower than the society that strives for it would like.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index
So the money allocated by the US and Europe has paid off, it is enough to compare the figures with Russian or Belarusian ones.
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Quote ( Ihor Rusnak @ July 13th 2022,15:25:07 ) But, of course, we did not spend money to support the Maidan. It was a spontaneous movement, which is very different from what Russia is doing now in eastern Ukraine May I ask? Are there any other people on this forum (except Igor) who believe that the United States did not invest in the coup in Ukraine in 2014?
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Quote ( Konstantin Sobolev @ July 13th 2022,15:38:24 ) May I ask? Are there any other people on this forum (except Igor) who believe that the United States did not invest in the coup in Ukraine in 2014?
First, find at least one Russian who does not believe that America is involved in everything in the world
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