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Is it logical?
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Emne: overlapped and weather change |
107 svar
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Quote ( Graham Mercer @ September 24th 2019,06:19:04 ) Agreed, I think that some believe that those who are laps behind should be able to drive those extra laps in dry conditions while those on the lead lap drive them in wet conditions. This give an incredibly unfair advantage which could amount to a time gain of a minute or even more. :(
I don't understand your logic. In real life, a race track gets wet at the same time (on the clock) for everyone; is this an advantage of a minute or more to the cars that are already a few laps behind? No it isn't; they stay behind by the same number of laps.
I accept how the race engine works and I wouldn't expect this to change in the foreseeable future, nor do I think it is crucial for the game. But I don't get arguments saying that system A is more fair than system B or vice versa. Both systems are fair, they're just different.
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I agree with Jasper. Things are only "not fair" if they operate differently for different people. If everyone is operating under the same system how can it be "unfair" to some?
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Quote ( Stefan Olofsson @ September 23rd 2019,20:43:47 ) I don't understand how anyone can argue with that it's unlogical
IMHO the problem is that it is not Intuitive, and thus looks unnatural
Once you get how the race engine works ( See Maxim's and Bela's posts for a quick explanation) itnis very logical.
The new race screen is a graphical representation that tries to make the most of the available data.
Quote ( Graham Mercer @ September 24th 2019,06:19:04 ) This give an incredibly unfair advantage which could amount to a time gain of a minute or even more. :(
At the end it levels out and to be honest I have never seen a difference of one minute.
Yes strrange thinhs occur like what happened last race withe 30 seconds DM's that included the car going backwards, but that was used.to compensate the way the engine provides data.
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Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ September 23rd 2019,16:34:51 )
ofc it does.
No it doesn't
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ September 23rd 2019,16:34:51 )
It gives everyone the chance to get full race distance data and the full race distance chance to compete for positions.
That's not how motor racing works. The fairness is that a driver/car that is much slower than others will be lapped down. And rain will come to they when rain starts, not a lap later.
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ September 23rd 2019,16:34:51 )
It also puts all competitors in the same conditions for exactly the same amount of time/laps
Laps yes, time nope.
And again, that's just not how motorsport works.
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ September 23rd 2019,16:34:51 )
Or maybe your definition of fairness is a bit different. Is your definition of fair "unequal conditions" :)
So are you suggesting that motorsport is unfair and this games fixes that unfairness? Do I understand you correctly?
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Quote ( Graham Mercer @ September 24th 2019,06:19:04 ) some believe that those who are laps behind should be able to drive those extra laps in dry conditions while those on the lead lap drive them in wet conditions
That is exactly what the OP is saying that happens and claiming to be unfair.
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Quote ( Michael Jones @ September 24th 2019,11:54:41 ) So watch the old viewer if you want to be on same weather conditions as others in your group..
It is not a matter of visualization. On the old screen you might not see it the same but the effect is the same. When rain starts on lap 36 it does only for those cars which completed 35 full laps already. If I'm too far behind the rain starts later for me (in race time) than for the leader.
Rain in reality starts at a time, not at a lap. In this game it does at a lap number. I don't mind the visualization, but the race analysis will show you that I am getting rain on lap 36 and not before, even if I was down 2 laps from the leader. Having the same amount of 35 dry laps is not fair, nor realistic.
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Please explain why it is not fair.
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Quote ( Joaquim Sierra @ September 23rd 2019,13:29:56 ) c
the way as it is now is a punishment and well in which race did you see when the rain finishes (or wice versa) that an overlaped driver drives in rain while its not raining ?....that the point...and of course i am for that it changes to a more realistic gameplay
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Quote ( Kali Hernandez @ September 24th 2019,14:26:04 ) So are you suggesting that motorsport is unfair and this games fixes that unfairness? Do I understand you correctly?
Yes that's exactly it. There are certain aspects in motorsport as in life which can be seen as unfair. GPRO fixes some of those aspects.
As example:
Everyone goes the full race length, getting full car wear, so being slower doesn't give added benefit (of reduced wear).
Everyone goes full race length, giving everyone full length data, so being faster doesn't give the benefit of more complete data
Everyone does the same amount of laps in race and in same conditions, so everyone has the same strategy circumstances, being slower or faster doesn't give additional benefit/loss
^^just a fewe examples
Quote ( Kali Hernandez @ September 24th 2019,14:44:25 ) Having the same amount of 35 dry laps is not fair,
IF you don't consider same circumstances for all being fair, then that would mean that you really do have a different definition of "fair"
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"Fair" and "logic" are not exact concepts.
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I understand why this is a concern.
Let's say I'm racing Lewis Hamilton. We both start, yet he pulls away drastically. Example: Lap 10 Lewis has overlapped me. Lap 12 it starts to rain. (real world; it rains weather I'm lapped or not)
Lewis and I are racing in the wet. Lap 20 it stops raining. Lewis is 2 laps ahead by this point but it has stopped raining. Realistically we're now both in dry weather, whether or not I have been lapped twice.
So, why should Lewis be racing in the dry and myself still in the wet. He now has even more of an advantage in the race with more speed, better cornering etc.
Logically I think that the weather should be based on the leader. If Lewis lapped me and then it's a dry track for him, I should have a dry lap too in that instance even though I'm two laps behind.
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Quote ( Leigh Barker @ September 24th 2019,18:32:33 ) Example: Lap 10 Lewis has overlapped me. Lap 12 it starts to rain. (real world; it rains weather I'm lapped or not)
Lewis and I are racing in the wet. Lap 20 it stops raining. Lewis is 2 laps ahead by this point but it has stopped raining. Realistically we're now both in dry weather, whether or not I have been lapped twice.
So, why should Lewis be racing in the dry and myself still in the wet. He now has even more of an advantage in the race with more speed, better cornering etc.
But in the first bit (when it starts raining) you are assuming a situation where the weather changes at the same time for both of you and in the second bit (where it stops raining) you are assuming a situation where the changes at different times for you
You can't have it both ways!
In GPRO you get an "advantage" when it starts to rain because you are on a dry track and Lewis is on a wet lap (which is why we see "backmarkers" overtaking leaders just after it starts to rain. When the rain stops Lewis gets an advantage because he is on a dry track and you are on a wet track
Bottom line, you both travel the same distance around the track when it is wet, regardless of the number of laps ahead he is.
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Quote ( Kali Hernandez @ September 24th 2019,14:44:25 ) Rain in reality starts at a time, not at a lap. In this game it does at a lap number. I don't mind the visualization, but the race analysis will show you that I am getting rain on lap 36 and not before, even if I was down 2 laps from the leader. Having the same amount of 35 dry laps is not fair, nor realistic.
Your race is simply a collection of timed laps.
Everyone does the same amount of laps.
The race summary/result is the sum of those lap times.
The winner is the person who did the laps in the quickest time.
The remaining positions are in order of the next quickest times.
If you were 5s slower a lap over 60 laps. you were 300s slower. You did 60 laps 300s slower than the leader.
Purely for representation, in the race summary and on the new live race screen, you are able to see what that time deficit would have equated to in laps behind the leader, calculated from the leader's lap times.
What your race analysis shows is fact. What the race summary shows is cosmetic.
Yes, this is not the exact way a real life race is run. No, that doesn't make it unfair. Sure, if Lando Norris comes to WRC asking how the races are done, and WRC say it's exactly like circuit racing, then I guess Lando has the right to be pissed if he treats it like a circuit race. But I don't see anywhere on this site claiming that the race simulations perfectly represent a circuit race.
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It is strange that something that is so clearly obvious in real F1 (or any other circuit racing sport) is not in this game.
There are decisions why the engine was made this way back in the days. Fair enough. It is what it is.
Whether this is “fair” or “unfair” remains a matter of opinions I believe.
some here argued that it is fair because it gives everyone the same conditions. As if that means fairness in a race.
I don't believe it gives fairness because it is just fair that a slower driver/car pair don’t need to run the full distance. I still need to see what advantage it would be to save 2 laps from being slower, but it could just be that it adds fairness to an unequal situation where the slow driver/car does not need to get all the car damage/wear precisely for not being able to race as many laps in the same time. Again, a fine line of opinons
What is totally undeniable is that this is just counter intuitive and unrealistic. The game is about F1 races. Yeah it is not a race simulator but that doesn’t mean it has to become a WRC race disguised as F1. The answer that I need to think of the race as a rally stage, or as if the cars were racing in some sort of “ghost mode” is to the very least strange. It gives a kind of “that’s what it is and if you don’t like it go away” very welcoming message feeling. But mostly, for newbies it is annoying that everything is “discover it all by yourself thinking about what matters on a real f1” but then there are totally unrealistic aspects on the game engine.
Bottom line:
Fair? It depends on how you look at it.
Realistic? not at all and caring about it is to be mocked or disrespected
Fair enough
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#75 Skrevet Sep 24 2019, 21:12:19 (senest redigeret Sep 24 2019, 21:16:44 af Josh Clark)
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Calling every reply to the proposition "mocking" and "disrespectful" is in itself disrespectful to the counter-argument. I don't see any mocking or disrespectful comments on this page.
I'm fairly certain, without looking back I must add, that nobody has disagreed with the fact that it isn't as realistic as a real circuit race. This much is obvious. What people have mentioned though is exactly why it is the way it is right now, and why it very likely won't change merely for realism's sake.
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Quote ( Kali Hernandez @ September 24th 2019,21:07:26 ) But I don't see anywhere on this site claiming that the race simulations perfectly represent a circuit race
I don’t see either where this FORMULA 1 simulation game has a disclaimer that you should think of the race more like a WRC staged race. That is incredibly counter intuitive and feels unnecessary at best. I don’t think that pointing that out is a reason to disregard anyone. The least you can expect from this scenario is people asking “why on earth ?”
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ September 24th 2019,21:12:19 ) Calling every reply to the proposition "mocking" and "disrespectful" is in itself disrespectful to the counter-argument. I don't see any mocking or disrespectful comments on this page.
Please have a look at some saying things such as why do we need to explain this, this would not even be a question with the old visualization, or my favourite “your definition of fairness is different”
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Quote ( Kali Hernandez @ September 24th 2019,21:12:50 ) I don’t see either where this FORMULA 1 simulation game
Who said that this was a Formula 1 simulation game?
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I always thought this was a management game .
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Quote ( Michael Jones @ September 24th 2019,21:42:57 ) I always thought this was a management game .
Of F1
Anyway thank you all for the very detailed explanations on why is it this way. I know now a bit better what to expect
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Quote ( Michael Jones @ September 24th 2019,21:42:57 ) I always thought this was a management game .
You were wrong.
"To err is human thing." :):):)
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Quote ( Kali Hernandez @ September 24th 2019,21:48:02 ) Of F1
No
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Quote ( Kali Hernandez @ September 24th 2019,21:12:50 )
I don’t see either where this FORMULA 1 simulation game
This is where you have it wrong.
GPRO is not a Formula 1 simulation game, in fact you won't see in the English version Formula 1 as such since it is a registered trademark
GPRO is a management game based on open wheel racing, mostly to Formula 1 as it stood 12-15 years ago (refueling, stops, single compound)
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Quote ( Kali Hernandez @ September 24th 2019,21:48:02 ) Of F1
funny how it’s not a F1 car on the log in screen! What is that a Indy car maybe?
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Very logical reasoning ....
All cars should pit when conditions change considering your personal selection of changing tyres (wet to dry or dry to wet) with how many lapse you want to run after the conditions have changed!
I too am no IT programming expert, I assume you have to juggle with timing for lap count and its applicability to change of conditions!
Even if its a management game, it affects the manager performance!
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Quote ( Chintaka Rajapakse @ September 25th 2019,06:53:22 ) Even if its a management game, it affects the manager performance!
Can you provide an example of how does the current model affect your management performance?
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#87 Skrevet Sep 25 2019, 17:27:11 (senest redigeret Sep 25 2019, 17:28:37 af Ben Gladwyn)
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I appreciate that the game is as it is and we should make the best of it. As such it is 100% fair because we all play to the same rules.
However as it is based on laps of a particular track, it makes sense that fast cars can lap slower cars and if so, those lapped cars will finish their race with a fewer number of laps completed. That's how races work.
It also makes sense that when it rains, it rains at the same time for everyone in the race irrespective of which lap they're on.
If that's a big problem for the developers then that's their call. Nobody else can say how complicated and time consuming it would be to design, implement, test and release that change. It could well be a total overhaul of the race engine. The game is perfectly enjoyable without it.
With the change, the races would be more realistic and understandable.
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Quote ( Eduardo Sanchez Carenzo @ September 25th 2019,00:56:16 ) Quote ( Kali Hernandez @ September 24th 2019,21:12:50 )
I don’t see either where this FORMULA 1 simulation game
This is where you have it wrong.
GPRO is not a Formula 1 simulation game, in fact you won't see in the English version Formula 1 as such since it is a registered trademark
GPRO is a management game based on open wheel racing, mostly to Formula 1 as it stood 12-15 years ago (refueling, stops, single compound)
/gb/AboutGPRO.asp
4 times the word F1 (also a trademark by the way) just on the excerpt of that page. Please come tell me again how this game is not about formula 1. Please. Pretty please.
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Quote ( Ben Gladwyn @ September 25th 2019,17:27:11 ) I appreciate that the game is as it is and we should make the best of it. As such it is 100% fair because we all play to the same rules.
However as it is based on laps of a particular track, it makes sense that fast cars can lap slower cars and if so, those lapped cars will finish their race with a fewer number of laps completed. That's how races work.
It also makes sense that when it rains, it rains at the same time for everyone in the race irrespective of which lap they're on.
If that's a big problem for the developers then that's their call. Nobody else can say how complicated and time consuming it would be to design, implement, test and release that change. It could well be a total overhaul of the race engine. The game is perfectly enjoyable without it.
With the change, the races would be more realistic and understandable.
Best answer of all. Thanks
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Quote ( Riley Dunlop @ September 24th 2019,21:32:54 ) Quote ( Kali Hernandez @ September 24th 2019,21:12:50 )
I don’t see either where this FORMULA 1 simulation game
Who said that this was a Formula 1 simulation game?
mmmmm let me see... the about page? the how tos? the list of F1 or ex F1 circuits? The constant real or almost real F1 drivers name collection on the drivers market? The team livery list? The cars pictured everywhere? The points system?
Like, really?
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