| Forfatter |
Emne: Market Offer Price Change |
101 svar
|
|
|
|
#1 Skrevet Nov 17 2020, 18:01:59
|
Citat
|
First of all, I did not comment before on the topic as I did not know details on how this change will be implemented.
I surely wasn't expecting a 800% public offer price increase. Nor 200% with 8h before.
Second, I understand the issue and I do agree it's an issue. I have friends in the game in those timezones.
And last, before I get into it, I personally have no issues bidding at any time I can bid at 11 CET just as well as 20 CET or 21 CET or 02 CET.
However, I think that the current solution addresses the issue by simply moving it to other timezones... which I find a bit baffling.
I used the numbers from this page (Nations Trophy) /gb/Stats.asp?type=natpoints#scroll
I considered, for the market deadline, an optimal time betwen 17:00 and 23:00, a sensible time between 07:00 and 23:00, and a bad time betwen 23:00 and 07:00.
On the previous offer rules (no price increase):
6977 managers were within the optimal time
9612 managers were within the sensible time
310 managers were within the bad time (Australia - 125, Philippines - 35, Malaysia - 29, Indonesia - 28, Singapore - 19, New Zealand - 17, Hong Kong - 14 and 16 others with less than 10)
On the current offer rules with NO price penalty (meaning the deadline is now 11 CET/game time):
301 managers are within the optimal time (Australia - 125, Philippines - 35, Malaysia - 29, Indonesia - 28, Singapore - 19, New Zealand - 17, Hong Kong - 14 and 12 others with less than 10)
8880 managers are within the sensible time
1042 managers are within the bad time (United States - 442, Venezuela - 182, Canada - 156, Mexico - 77, Colombia - 66, Chile - 39, Peru - 23, Ecuador - 21 and 15 others with less than 10)
So the issue was moved from Australia to United States.
On the current offer rules with 100% price penalty (meaning the deadline is now 15 CET/game time):
752 managers are within the optimal time (Russian Federation - 196, Australia - 125, Turkey - 105, India - 82, Philippines - 35, Malaysia - 29, Indonesia - 28, Singapore - 19, Belarus - 18, Hong Kong - 14, Madagascar - 10 and 31 others with less than 10)
9901 managers are within the sensible time
21 managers are within the bad time (New Zealand - 17 and 4 others with 1 manager)
Now this last one does indeed look better as there are more managers within the sensible time as before, but it does come with a 100% price penalty.
I am not going to calculate the managers for the other increases as I find them too high. Yes, there will be bids in those intervals, but the penalty that those have to pay is, in my humble opinion, prohibitive and it's not making it more fair.
If the aim is to have the most managers within the sensible time, then 14-15 CET/game time is the best time and 9901 managers will be within the sensible time.
If the aim is to have the most managers within the optimal time, then 21 CET/game time is the best time and 8456 managers will be within this interval with 9518 in sensible interval and 404 in the bad one.
If the aim is to have the least managers within the bad time, then 14-15 CET/game time is the best and the numbers from above apply (21 managers).
Going further my assumption is that the aim is to make it more fair for as many managers as possible and not create a cash sink in the game. If the aim is to create another sink then disregard everything else :D
My thought would be to at least move the 11 CET/game time increase to 14-15 CET/game time, and reduce the intervals of the increases further (so they fit the new time frame). I am not going to talk about the increases themselves even though I find them ridiculous.
An alternative to this solution could also be rotating market deadlines: first market 21 CET, second market 10 CET, third market 15 CET then back to the first market deadline (6 total rotations through-out a season). And they could be shuffled each season (season 1 first market 21 CET, season 2 first market 10 CET, season 3 first market 15 CET). Yes, this could create issues with people not knowing the new deadlines, but this can be simply resolved with a notification of next market deadline in the header or with a countdown under the current time (there surely is room there for another line).
What are your thoughts and take on this?
PS: I know you can bid before the deadline, but the logic of this change was to penalize the bidders with more information about previous bids. So following the same logic, those with the most information and NO penalty are those that can bid at 11 CET/game time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#2 Skrevet Nov 17 2020, 18:10:22
|
Citat
|
Quote ( Montes Dimemola @ November 17th 2020,18:01:59 ) If the aim is to create another sink then disregard everything else :D
The change is a double whammy. It's partly about people in different timezones yes. But I do think it's to make planning to pick up a driver in the market madness before race 1 less appealing and there are arguments why that is worth doing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#3 Skrevet Nov 17 2020, 18:11:30
|
Citat
|
Quote ( Lee Ifans @ November 17th 2020,18:10:22 ) But I do think it's to make planning to pick up a driver in the market madness before race 1 less appealing and there are arguments why that is worth doing.
There will still be market madness, just 8 hours earlier than usual :D
|
|
|
|
|
|
#4 Skrevet Nov 17 2020, 18:14:00
|
Citat
|
I agree it doesn't seem to be implemented in the best way. Firstly, $4million for an offer is absurd, I was expecting maximum $2.5million for the final stage, and certainly not double the normal offer at midday on market day. Especially on season opener markets where most people without certain staff will make 4 bids. Imagine paying $16mill and losing all your bids :D
On the Tuesday > Friday interval, this leaves managers with Tuesday evening and Wednesday to find, choose and bid on a TD without a fee. Some time zones will have the Thursday morning, some won't. Meaning if you've got shit to do on Wednesday you either have to sort your TD stuff out post-race on Tuesday, or kiss goodbye to at least an extra $500k.
I do think late bidders should be penalized in some way, but not to the extreme it currently is, and I certainly don't feel like the time before penalization should be so short.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#5 Skrevet Nov 17 2020, 18:20:26
|
Citat
|
On a related note I would like to see the deadline for firing your TD moved forward. Right now you can fire your TD up until 11 hours before the offer cost increases, which feels a bit tight. I would propose putting that deadline 3 or 4 hours earlier, so that there is still enough time to do it post-race on Thursdays, but also more time for the TD to be spotted on the market by other managers.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#6 Skrevet Nov 17 2020, 18:24:01
|
Citat
|
Quote ( Ivan Silva @ November 17th 2020,18:11:30 ) There will still be market madness, just 8 hours earlier than usual :D
The madness was people making speculative $4mil offers 30 minutes before the deadline.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#7 Skrevet Nov 17 2020, 18:28:06
|
Citat
|
Honestly, i don't feel the fees/increases are absurd.
You want to be an early bird for cheap? Go for it. You're going to risk counteroffers, but that's ok. You wanted cheap.
You want a free pass to scout the market for that hidden gem, and trump one of those sad early bird bidders? Sure, but you'll pay more.
And let's be honest, 500k or 1M extra to make an offer isn't going to scare many people off. A whopping 3M extra is. Love it!
Haven't really got an opinion on the idealness of the timing of the increments, although i do feel a nation list is a bit of a simplistic view on the matter (not that much better info around, granted).
Also seems a bit early to tell what the result will be (lot of offers on the no-penalty deadline? Or still many offers made late? Who knows!)
Do agree with Jasper's point, that TD sack deadline might need to change accordingly.
|
|
|
|
|
|
#8 Skrevet Nov 17 2020, 18:31:10
|
Citat
|
It is indeed a huge change and I didn't expect that the prices would have gone up by that much.
How was the market before? There were almost no bids on drivers or technical directors till the very end (in pro or master often multiple bids in the last minute). If you hadn't the possiblity to be online at the exact time the market closed down you wouldn't get the driver you wanted unless you gave him a very big offer that he couldn't refuse.
I think that this is resolved now since there will be only very few managers which will wait till the last moment because they will have to pay 800% extra for making the bid. There is a chance that a lot of people will wait till the last minute before 11am to make their bid. If you however just missed that opportunity, you now have the chance to make a new offer to the driver but with a double cost of what your original bid would have been.
The market will become more transparant because of this. You'll know if a specific driver will be popular or not because he will already have quite a lot of bids and you can act accoringly.
The added value for waiting till the last minute is also gone because you still have the chance to make a bid in the next timeframe at a slightly higher price. It might be that a lot of people will do their bids in the last minute before 11 am but after a while more people will do it at 9 am or 22pm the day before. The ones who want to wait till the absolute deadline can still do it but it will come at a (big) cost.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Josh Clark @ November 17th 2020,18:14:00 ) Especially on season opener markets where most people without certain staff will make 4 bids. Imagine paying $16mill and losing all your bids :D
That's only if they waited for the last 30 minutes, even when they had days to put in the offers.
Making the offers just 1 hour earlier would've cut the price to what you "expected". Don't you think it would be quite an easy choice to make the offers one hour earlier, specially considering there are days to decide that
Now I do get (and agree) that the price increase is steep. But I also think that it does the job intended: Discourages making offers at last minutes.
It's just because this was the first time the cost increase may have caught some people by surprise.
Quote ( Josh Clark @ November 17th 2020,18:14:00 ) and I certainly don't feel like the time before penalization should be so short.
Agreed. The first offer cost increment could be 1-2 hours later (considering people in less favorable time-zones)
To conclude, even as the increases might be steep I do think they work, but the timing of first increment could be adjusted a bit
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Miel Soeterbroek @ November 17th 2020,18:28:06 ) Honestly, i don't feel the fees/increases are absurd.
You want to be an early bird for cheap? Go for it. You're going to risk counteroffers, but that's ok. You wanted cheap.
You want a free pass to scout the market for that hidden gem, and trump one of those sad early bird bidders? Sure, but you'll pay more.
Which is why I only said I find them ridiculous and didn't talk about them. I can certainly see the same point you're making.
Quote ( Miel Soeterbroek @ November 17th 2020,18:28:06 )
Haven't really got an opinion on the idealness of the timing of the increments, although i do feel a nation list is a bit of a simplistic view on the matter (not that much better info around, granted).
The calculation is crude for sure, but Vlad should definitely have more traffic data to make a better calculation... probably...
Quote ( Miel Soeterbroek @ November 17th 2020,18:28:06 )
Also seems a bit early to tell what the result will be (lot of offers on the no-penalty deadline? Or still many offers made late? Who knows!)
I do. Over 600 extra millions wiped from the game in the past half hour :D
EDIT: It's NOT a typo.
|
|
|
|
This is why I said that the actual increases should have been made public by way of the announcement, rather than leave for people to FOBY on deadline day.
Now the deed is done though, this should not be changed or reverted till the end of this season. It's unfair to people who've already spent big on the first market.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Miel Soeterbroek @ November 17th 2020,18:28:06 ) And let's be honest, 500k or 1M extra to make an offer isn't going to scare many people off. A whopping 3M extra is. Love it!
My main issue was that the reset occurred late Saturday afternoon. Then Sunday happened and a lot of people have stuff to do on Sundays. Others have lots of free time. Those lucky buggers...
Then unless you got up really early before work, or unless you were working in the afternoon, you just had to accept you were paying more for your offers, through absolutely no desire to be an early bird or scout the market late. You just had to take that on the chin. That wasn't really fair. Especially since for some managers there's loads of stuff to do after the reset. Looks even more unfair for those in NA/SA. Those who like to budget their seasons and figure out how much they're allowed to spend on drivers and TDs had to do all of that before making an offer. Throw that into the works and people who do stuff on Sundays had no chance...
|
|
|
|
I disagree with the OP and think that the price progression is good.
As someone who used to snipe offers in the last second, I don't think the 11 CET deadline works the same way. With the current rules I don't see much advantage of bidding at 10:59 CET over bidding at 8 CET or even the night before.
I say the price progression is good, because it has to be steep to be effective. The final minutes price has to be absurdly high, otherwise people would just accept a slightly higher fee and keep sniping at 18:59 CET. I also don't find the 200% increase in the first period too much, when I recall how many times I used to place 2 offers instead of one to get more chances of hiring a driver/TD.
What I think can be even more effective is continuous price change (with the amounts similar to the current ones). That way all deadlines except for the absurdly high 19 CET hard deadline are removed, but "the earlier the cheaper" makes people bid early. I think it could start at constant 300k until 24h to the deadline, reach 500k by the current 11 CET, then keep increasing hitting the subsequent deadlines at the currently used prices.
|
|
|
|
I made exactly this point when it was implemented, it's not a solution. All it's done is change the time and punished people that don't read announcements.
Please just make all staff offers completely private and show how many people have shortlisted them, rather than how many offers they have. Then everyone's in the same boat. Or don't even show who's shortlisted them, just leave it unknown. Offers can then become visible when the deadline is passed.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Josh Clark @ November 17th 2020,18:40:41 ) Quote ( Miel Soeterbroek @ November 17th 2020,18:28:06 )
And let's be honest, 500k or 1M extra to make an offer isn't going to scare many people off. A whopping 3M extra is. Love it!
My main issue was that the reset occurred late Saturday afternoon. Then Sunday happened and a lot of people have stuff to do on Sundays. Others have lots of free time. Those lucky buggers...
Then unless you got up really early before work, or unless you were working in the afternoon, you just had to accept you were paying more for your offers, through absolutely no desire to be an early bird or scout the market late. You just had to take that on the chin. That wasn't really fair. Especially since for some managers there's loads of stuff to do after the reset. Looks even more unfair for those in NA/SA. Those who like to budget their seasons and figure out how much they're allowed to spend on drivers and TDs had to do all of that before making an offer. Throw that into the works and people who do stuff on Sundays had no chance...
Come on Josh, the change was announced 6 weeks ago. It also shouldn't be a surprise that R17 is followed by a reset...
There were 41 hours between the reset finishing and the first price increase on the market...
Whichever timezone you're in, or whatever you've got on Sundays. There was ample time, if you really had to be on that market. Even if you had to be there in the cheapest of cheap times ;)
|
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Shoaib Mohamed @ November 17th 2020,18:40:00 ) Now the deed is done though, this should not be changed or reverted till the end of this season. It's unfair to people who've already spent big on the first market.
Except maybe pushing the first increment forward by 1-2 hours, considering the time between Tuesday race and Thursday market is relatively short.
That would be a minor tweak which could be done even if the seasons initial one/two markets have been done. It would help those in less favorable time-zones.
Quote ( Ania Piekarska @ November 17th 2020,18:42:53 ) it has to be steep to be effective. The final minutes price has to be absurdly high, otherwise people would just accept a slightly higher fee and keep sniping
Indeed.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Josh Clark @ November 17th 2020,18:40:41 )
Looks even more unfair for those in NA/SA.
That's actually the main point I wanted to make. The change affects negatively more managers than were affected before. It definitely was unfair before, but how is it not unfair now (granted for a different timezone)?
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Ania Piekarska @ November 17th 2020,18:42:53 ) I disagree with the OP and think that the price progression is good.
Uhm it's good that you have a different opinion on a different topic :D
I was not talking about the price increase progression. AT ALL. Just about the timing of it
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Miel Soeterbroek @ November 17th 2020,18:45:36 ) There were 41 hours between the reset finishing and the first price increase on the market...
Don't get how that's relevant when 16 of them are for sleeping and a further 18 of them are waking hours on Sunday.
I just don't see the point of the update at all at this extreme. What has it fixed?
The problem I assumed it was trying to fix was that people who were forced to make bids earlier because of IRL reasons were vulnerable to having their staff sniped by those who could offer closer to the deadline.
Now the problem is flipped, and those who are forced to make bids later because of IRL reasons are penalized where people who can make offers whenever they like aren't. It doesn't get much more backwards than that :D
|
|
|
|
One good thing to come of this in my opinion is that the chances of failing to make an offer due to a technical glitch or just bad timing in the last couple of seconds has been removed, unless you are trying to offer last second bids during the final increment. Now the worst that can happen from such misfortune is that you have to pay a bit more to make the offer instead, which is something that is generally more palatable to the managers involved.
As for the amount the price increases, it's a massive amount for sure. I guess it's something that Vlad having all the stats available to him can check out after it's been in place a while. If there is really nobody placing bids in the final two or three increments, then it would make sense to reduce the final bid prices I think.
|
|
|
|
So much that could be improved and rules that could be perfected...but this one, is in my opinion, not one that has been well tought about, and certainly somewhat unfair to many managers, even if many other managers don´t think so!
Although I can see what it is meant to bring positevly to the game, I can´t vote for it. It should perhaps be adjusted, at least! I also thgink that the offer price is too steep.
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Josh Clark @ November 17th 2020,18:53:15 ) those who are forced to make bids later because of IRL reasons
How many people are forced to make their offers during the last hour because IRL reasons ?
compared to how many people used to make offers during the last possible hour
|
|
|
|
|
|
What the benefit of bidding late is, varies greatly depending on your level and situation. Thus, it's hard to set a "correct" level of late bidding price. Even with 4M, it sometimes is valuable to bid, while sometimes the best may be 11:00. But generally the level is quite good, I think. If anything, I might start the increase even earlier, but, if implementable, I would make it continuous. So something like below. Then there wouldn't be any clear "best time", but any time you placed a bid, someone could counter with just a bit higher price.
|
|
|
|
one thing to be considered is that for majority of Brazil territory 19:00 CET is now 15:00, so it means the first price increase happens @ 7AM our time. Very few people are up at this time.
we have the highest number of managers by far... so that should be taken into account.
United States and Argentina, who are not far off our timezone, have over 1000 managers combined.
So that affects a good chunk of GPRO...
e: fixed time
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Montes Dimemola @ November 17th 2020,18:51:22 ) Quote ( Ania Piekarska @ November 17th 2020,18:42:53 )
I disagree with the OP and think that the price progression is good.
Uhm it's good that you have a different opinion on a different topic :D
I was not talking about the price increase progression. AT ALL. Just about the timing of it
These were two statements, not a statement and a reason for it.
I disagree with your post because I don't think the current 11 CET deadline is as important as previously 19 CET was.
The part about the progression was mainly a counterweight to Josh's post, although your mention of it suggested you also are not happy about it (or so I thought).
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 17th 2020,18:59:40 ) If anything, I might start the increase even earlier
But thenagain, might you not be looking at it from an European time-zone aspect,
or...
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 17th 2020,18:59:40 ) Even with 4M, it sometimes is valuable to bid
Maybe you're looking at it from Elite perspective
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Rafael Mantovani @ November 17th 2020,19:02:20 ) one thing to be considered is that for majority of Brazil territory 19CET is now 15 CET, so it
Is this for real?
4 hr DST? :O
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
There is nothing as such optimal / sensible time
It depends on your POV
|
|
|
|
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ November 17th 2020,19:06:34 ) Maybe you're looking at it from Elite perspective
I doubt I would have paid 4M to bid for Elite driver/td. Master, however...
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Română
Italiano
Português
Português
Français
Polski
Русский
Български
Македонски
Српски
Nederlands
Vlaams
Suomi
Lietuvių
Čeština
Magyar
Eesti keel
Slovenčina
Türkçe
Shqip
Ελληνικά
Hrvatski
Bahasa Melayu
Pirate
