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Aihe: Setup vs Driver mistakes (GPRO Calc) |
57 vastausta
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#1 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 09:30:24
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The last couple of races I've got 5-7 driver mistakes per race and loses anything from 2-10 seconds per mistake.
My CT Risk was quite high (80-90). But I've realised that my Practise laps driver mistakes (DM) was quite high(0.700 - 1 sec) too.
I presume it is not only the risks that has an impact on DM in a race but also the driver mistakes in practise.
I'm using the GPRO practise calc for setup. And my driver is very seldome satisfied with the setup, but I get faster times and less mistake times with him not beign satisfied.
So heres the questions...
1. What is the point then of saying that the driver is satisfied, if it doesn't really mean anything?
2. Is it better to go for a faster time or less mistakes?
3. If you calc the setup, you have no idea what your driver mistake factor will be with the Q1 setup and you might be faster,
but your mistake factor might be VERY high.
4. Is there another calculator or way to calc your setup.
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#2 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 09:45:04 (viimeksi muokattu 20.08.2012, 09:45:22 Ayman Daher toimesta)
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1)Driver's satisfaction in your practice laps does mean something...coz if you look at the net times it will be better in those where your driver is satisfied with the setup...(well most of the time...there are exceptions and that has to do with the perfect setup..)
2)you must choose the setup that has better net time..
3)Driver's error depends on things other than driver's setup( things to do with your driver's skills)..
4)there is a procedure to find perfect setup...when you learn it...your lap times will be much better..
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#3 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 09:47:59
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Firstly your CT risk are really high for Amateur and I would suggest to lower it and secondly we had 2 rain races now. Is that maybe the reason for your driver mistakes? ;)
Quote ( Hein Joubert @ August 20th 2012,09:30:24 ) 1. What is the point then of saying that the driver is satisfied, if it doesn't really mean anything?
But it does mean something. The only thing is, that depending on your driver there may be a bigger or lower range within he is satisfied. Try to work out this range (through testing for example), because then you just need to find the upper or lower limit during practice and then just subtract / add the half of this range so that the final setting is right in the middle ;)
Quote ( Hein Joubert @ August 20th 2012,09:30:24 ) 2. Is it better to go for a faster time or less mistakes?
ALWAYS look at the NET time.
Quote ( Hein Joubert @ August 20th 2012,09:30:24 ) 3. If you calc the setup, you have no idea what your driver mistake factor will be with the Q1 setup and you might be faster, but your mistake factor might be VERY high.
Depending on your driver stats, his mistakes will be always in the same "range". Some drivers do have a very low "mistake range" though whereas others can have a rather big one.
The weather may has something to do with it as well.
Quote ( Hein Joubert @ August 20th 2012,09:30:24 ) 4. Is there another calculator or way to calc your setup.
Like I answered to your first question and there is even better information out there on the forums how to setup the car ;)
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#4 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 10:23:00
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Quote ( Hein Joubert @ August 20th 2012,09:30:24 ) I'm using the GPRO practise calc for setup.
I'm not sure what this is - I assume you are talking about a tool from somewhere. If you are using a tool without understanding how or why it works (and from what you've said it sounds pretty poor anyway) then you're going to struggle to improve.
Tools are great time savers when you know what you are doing, but do use one blindly won't do you any favours. As mentioned, there is plenty information out there to help guide you on how to find a perfect Q1 set up, although it won't tell you how to adapt that set up for Q2 or the race if conditions are different. Finding that out is all part of the game.
Also, as already mentioned, the rain in the last two races would be a big part in extra driver errors, especially if using risks higher than your driver can sensibly use for his ability and the conditions.
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i think he's referring to this one kev
Mod Edit: blacklisted link removed
(delete full stop in the middle)
it's not a very good tool imo as it requires you to waste all your practice laps on it. plus, I think its blacklisted. which must mean something.....baaaaaaaad. I would imagine this resource is not to be trusted.
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Maybe best not to post it if it's blacklisted, Stuart :p
I assume it will be blacklisted as it will have FOBY stuff in it so shouldn't be posted on the public forum, although if that is what he is using, then my point about blindly using a tool and not learning for yourself is spot on :)
EDIT - Just had a look and should definitely not be posted on this forum, if just for the fact it shows people's practice laps and driver and car attributes, stuff that is clearly not allowed in the public forum. Also shows people clearly not having a clue what they are doing and blindly using the tool :(
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#7 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 10:44:11
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Just checked that tool a few times and it didn't give the best results. There's more to the setup than that and if you use calcs like that you'll never get any better. You're doomed to mediocrity... DOOMED I say! :D
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#8 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 10:56:32 (viimeksi muokattu 20.08.2012, 10:58:45 Hein Joubert toimesta)
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Quote ( Stuart Foster @ August 20th 2012,10:28:19 ) i think he's referring to this one kev
That's the one...
Blacklisted? Really? Why will something like that be blacklisted?
Kevin: I understand how it works (my theory at least), I just use the tool to make my life easier. And this tool is based on that theory.
Quote ( Christoph Seifriedsberger @ August 20th 2012,09:47:59 )
Firstly your CT risk are really high for Amateur and I would suggest to lower it and secondly we had 2 rain races now. Is that maybe the reason for your driver mistakes? ;)
Thanks, I'll take a look into this. Rain races... was definitely a reason for the mistakes.
Quote ( Christoph Seifriedsberger @ August 20th 2012,09:47:59 ) But it does mean something. The only thing is, that depending on your driver there may be a bigger or lower range within he is satisfied. Try to work out this range (through testing for example), because then you just need to find the upper or lower limit during practice and then just subtract / add the half of this range so that the final setting is right in the middle ;)
That is exactly what I do, but I can't seem to get my driver mistakes really low.
I also always look at the net time. But, if a net lap time is the faster, but has a greater mistake time than another one. Which one do you use?
Can you maybe direct me to a link where I can get better info on setup calculation? I tried searching for it, but there are so many. I don't know which one is the best.
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#9 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 11:04:24
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Quote ( Hein Joubert @ August 20th 2012,10:56:32 ) Blacklisted? Really? Why will something like that be blacklisted? Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ August 20th 2012,10:34:31 ) it will have FOBY stuff in it so shouldn't be posted on the public forum Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ August 20th 2012,10:34:31 ) if just for the fact it shows people's practice laps and driver and car attributes, stuff that is clearly not allowed in the public forum
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Quote ( Hein Joubert @ August 20th 2012,10:56:32 ) Kevin: I understand how it works (my theory at least), I just use the tool to make my life easier. And this tool is based on that theory.
I disagree. If you don't understand the importance of when your driver says he is satisfied, as you ask in your first post, then you don't understand how to find the best set up, so using a tool instead of trying to find this out yourself is not helping you.
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Quote ( Hein Joubert @ August 20th 2012,10:56:32 ) But, if a net lap time is the faster, but has a greater mistake time than another one. Which one do you use? Quote ( Christoph Seifriedsberger @ August 20th 2012,09:47:59 ) ALWAYS look at the NET time.
The capitals were the clue, so Christoph certainly thinks you should always use the net time :) A little test for this would be to run identical laps in practice - you will see the net time will be identical, although the actual lap time and driver mistake will vary.
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#10 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 11:09:54
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Quote ( Hein Joubert @ August 20th 2012,10:56:32 ) I also always look at the net time. But, if a net lap time is the faster, but has a greater mistake time than another one. Which one do you use?
First analyse your diver skills and how it works. This is base. Setup after.
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#11 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 11:12:26
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Quote ( Hein Joubert @ August 20th 2012,10:56:32 ) Can you maybe direct me to a link where I can get better info on setup calculation? I tried searching for it, but there are so many. I don't know which one is the best.
Your driver is satisfied with a range of settings. How big that range is is determined by some of the driver attributes, and is for you to find out. While he may be satisfied with a setting within that range, the ideal setting is somewhere inside of that range, let's assume the middle, for this example :)
To find the middle of his "happy range" you must either know both outer limits of the range, or one end of the range and how big the happiness range is. Obviously finding one end of the range is much quicker to do with a limited number of practice laps, so it would be beneficial to work out your driver's "happy range". While that will change with your driver attributes, it won't change significantly over a short period of time so it might help you to find a way to test out what that happy range is by, at least once, finding the upper and lower boundaries of it :)
Of course, to be much more accurate, you will need to work out how to accurately calculate that "happy range" just from his attributes, but that's all part of the learning the game, and the fun and rewarding FOBY side of it :)
Good luck :)
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#12 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 11:13:28
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Quote ( Daneks Britāls @ August 20th 2012,11:09:54 ) First analyse your diver skills and how it works. This is base. Setup after.
That's a pro tip for wet tracks! XD
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#13 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 11:14:14
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I would say that knowing that your setup was right would be the easiest way to help you analyse driver skills, but hey ho, I ain't good enough to wear bling.
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#14 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 11:16:10
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Nothing left for me to say. Kevin already answered and yes some words were all in capital letters for a reason ;)
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Quote ( Michael Winkley @ August 20th 2012,11:14:14 ) I would say that knowing that your setup was right would be the easiest way to help you analyse driver skills, but hey ho, I ain't good enough to wear bling.
It is possible to win a race in rookie with random setup. If You have driver for it :D
Quote ( Jari Kuusisto @ August 20th 2012,11:13:28 ) That's a pro tip for wet tracks! XD
lol. some day I will finally kick out this keuboard. For a reason that I must always check if all letters r worked :D
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#16 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 11:20:54
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ August 20th 2012,11:04:24 ) I disagree. If you don't understand the importance of when your driver says he is satisfied, as you ask in your first post, then you don't understand how to find the best set up, so using a tool instead of trying to find this out yourself is not helping you.
Yes, you are correct, I have no idea what it means when a driver says he is satisfied with the setup. :)
I've got very conflicting data that I gathered over the last seasons. For example: If the driver is happy, it doesn't mean that it is the fastest time or the lap with the least driver mistakes. To me that is VERY confusing.
Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ August 20th 2012,11:04:24 ) A little test for this would be to run identical laps in practice - you will see the net time will be identical, although the actual lap time and driver mistake will vary.
I found that aswell, but that just adds to the confusion...
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I don't understand your confusion. They are drivers, not robots. The actual lap time will naturally vary due to small errors but their "perfect lap time" will remain constant for each set up.
With regard to a satisfied driver being faster than him when not satisified, unless you have a perfect set up for every part, then you are just comparing different levels of bad. And I've already covered the driver's satisfied range and how to use it to get an ideal set up for Q1.
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#18 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 11:40:02
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The dm in practice is random within his error range. As said above, concentrate on somthing else ALWAYS
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it confuses me sometimes too, though i realized it's basically a matter of skills (of the driver) + conditions (like rain), and kevin's quotes have clerared it all better than i could do. guide yourself by that (i'm doing the same).
however, i just like to say that what you call "driver mistake" in Q laps has probably nothing to do with that driver mistake in race when you loose positions.
i'd say (if i'm mistaken please thumb me down guys) Q mistakes are related to a certain skill (plus weather conditions, plus risks); race mistakes to another (plus weather conditions, plus risks).
best
c
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#20 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 13:11:10
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What's the point of blacklisting something found on page 1 of a simple google search?
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#21 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 13:17:24
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Quote ( Daneks Britāls @ August 20th 2012,11:16:59 )
It is possible to win a race in rookie with random setup. If You have driver for it
That's a bizarre thing to say.
It probably is possible but it's not exactly a good idea.
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Quote ( Krasimir Ivanov @ August 20th 2012,13:11:10 ) What's the point of blacklisting something found on page 1 of a simple google search?
Because it is against the forum rules?
Somebody could PM you exact data or give you it off site, but that doesn't mean it should be permitted in the main forum.
And it certainly shouldn't be encouraged by allowing it to be posted here, even more so if it isn't accurate, as has been suggested.
Quote ( Sion Francis @ August 20th 2012,13:17:24 ) Quote ( Daneks Britāls @ August 20th 2012,11:16:59 )
It is possible to win a race in rookie with random setup. If You have driver for it
That's a bizarre thing to say.
It probably is possible but it's not exactly a good idea.
Couldn't agree more. People should be mastering these kind of things at lower levels, not avoiding them because they can. That would just lead to people struggling as they progress as they haven't worked out the basics.
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#23 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 13:40:31
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i don't think it would be possible with random figures maybe if you were just off by 100 or so but not just random you would have to be very lucky.
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#24 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 13:56:52
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With a good driver and high risks, it is probably quite possible. But can't think of a reason to try it out :)
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#25 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 13:59:38
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ August 20th 2012,13:56:52 ) With a good driver and high risks, it is probably quite possible. But can't think of a reason to try it out :)
The point is that dive is only what apply in rookie. Hire correct driver, make him even better and destroy ookie regadless of how good manager you are.
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#26 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 14:03:52
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I'd rather take 400-500% sponsor progress with me, but hey, I have no bling, so no-one hears me when I sing.
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You are so wrong, Daneks.
If someone knows how to get a perfect set up then why wouldn't they? And if someone doesn't, then rookie is where they should be learning.
And surely dominating rookie with a monster driver you've built with no risks is ideal for money and sponsor progress, and I doubt you could do that (with no risks, I mean) if you didn't have good set ups.
The point that your driver can be so important in rookie is made, but the rest of what you say is just plain silly.
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ August 20th 2012,14:07:40 ) You are so wrong, Daneks.
If someone knows how to get a perfect set up then why wouldn't they? And if someone doesn't, then rookie is where they should be learning.
And surely dominating rookie with a monster driver you've built with no risks is ideal for money and sponsor progress, and I doubt you could do that (with no risks, I mean) if you didn't have good set ups.
The point that your driver can be so important in rookie is made, but the rest of what you say is just plain silly.
I am trying to point to newb what he must look at first. He pointed that his driver has heavy mistake (what leads to high dif between his net and his real time) in practice. so it is not a setup problem perhaps.
New players must learns in correct order. drive skills is what he must learn first since it is perfectly possible to finish rookie school just with this knowlwdge while without it hardly. Everything else (as setup finding) is very good info but not primar in rookie.
Now go to disagree :D
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#29 lähetetty 20.08.2012, 14:43:32
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Quote ( Daneks Britāls @ August 20th 2012,14:34:17 ) New players must learns in correct order. drive skills is what he must learn first since it is perfectly possible to finish rookie school just with this knowlwdge while without it hardly. Everything else (as setup finding) is very good info but not primar in rookie.
this, here, newbies look ... =)
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Quote ( Daneks Britāls @ August 20th 2012,14:34:17 ) I am trying to point to newb what he must look at first. He pointed that his driver has heavy mistake (what leads to high dif between his net and his real time) in practice. so it is not a setup problem perhaps.
But if you look at the size of the errors in practice for the wet conditions he is talking about, then you will see that even a possibly strong low-level driver could easily experience these. And his risks are way too high for race conditions at that level.
Quote ( Daneks Britāls @ August 20th 2012,14:34:17 ) New players must learns in correct order. drive skills is what he must learn first since it is perfectly possible to finish rookie school just with this knowlwdge while without it hardly. Everything else (as setup finding) is very good info but not primar in rookie.
Now go to disagree :D
I don't disagree that driver is important, but I do disagree that driver skills should be first priority. Certainly, they should learn the few skills that are immediately important, but I believe mastering your set up and strategy (fuel and tyre) should be the most important thing for a newbie, both for low levels and so you can concentrate on other things as you progress.
For example, when I returned, I signed a driver with very low salary (still got him a few extensions later and still under 400k a race) to train up but I was getting decent results early on when he was a poor rookie driver, even though I used no risks, just because my strategies were good.
If you focus on your driver and get to Amateur with a good driver, but don't know how to do your set up or plan your strategy well, then you're going to struggle.
Of course, you could have the same issue with a bad driver, but as long as you have one or two attributes at the right level, then I would think that's enough for that level, and you can improve on that once you've learned the other basics.
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