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Topic: Random is getting beyond a joke. |
6268 replies
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Quote ( Jay O`dowd @ July 2nd 2014,08:30:35 ) But surely realism in a game should never come at the expense of it being fun?
That's a matter of personal opinion. Some find fun on supposed realistic manager games by experiencing the ups and downs similar to what the game's trying to simulate. In this case, it's a motorsport team manager, and no team in motorsport is immune to 'randoms'
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Quote ( Jay O`dowd @ July 2nd 2014,08:30:35 ) Quote ( Luke Frost @ July 2nd 2014,08:12:02 )
That's the way manager games are designed. To be realistic, there has to be random simulation. F1 drivers don't go screaming at Bernie if they have a tyre puncture or run over a deer, f.e. But surely realism in a game should never come at the expense of it being fun?
other people may find a game without random boring. if you would know every outcome before a match (or race) is simulated is never desireable for a game imho
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Random is always a part of formula 1, ask Hamilton or Webber or a whole host of other drivers. In this game there are a whole lot of randoms - some you can control, some you can't. All appeals up to now have been dismissed, so I guess we have to deal with them.
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Well if we say we only want fun without any facts that could ruin a race well then we should just play a game close to Need for Speed or stuff like that. Sure i can understand the fact that randoms are something where we all want to throw something but thats something we have to live with if we want not a random "Everything is fins" racer where the only thing that is different between high ranked guys and yourself is that they played longer. So like Luke said its a realistic scenario and that is what we all want.
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Quote ( Robert Straif @ July 2nd 2014,08:37:53 ) other people may find a game without random boring. if you would know every outcome before a match (or race) is simulated is never desireable for a game imho
With the qualifying risks, various race risks, miscellaneous managing risks, tyre suppliers, pit strategies, variable pit stop times, and different drivers having different ideal set-ups, would the races truly be boring without the pure randoms added in?
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Quote ( Jay O`dowd @ July 2nd 2014,09:39:45 ) Quote ( Robert Straif @ July 2nd 2014,08:37:53 )
other people may find a game without random boring. if you would know every outcome before a match (or race) is simulated is never desireable for a game imho
With the qualifying risks, various race risks, miscellaneous managing risks, tyre suppliers, pit strategies, variable pit stop times, and different drivers having different ideal set-ups, would the races truly be boring without the pure randoms added in?
It would not be entirely boring but when you do a late qualy for example then you can figure out on what strategy your oppents are so you do the same and in the end we have races where we have every driver on the same tires with the same amount of fuel and the only difference would be the car. is that fun? when you have the best car you always win? Now you can be curtain about the end and have more emotions in a race when you win it.
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Pure randoms can go the moment they bring it crash related retirements.
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Quote ( Michael Winkley @ July 2nd 2014,10:06:14 ) Pure randoms can go the moment they bring it crash related retirements. And add an option to ram a car if it's ahead of you.
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Quote ( Krasimir Ivanov @ July 2nd 2014,10:10:13 ) Quote ( Michael Winkley @ July 2nd 2014,10:06:14 )
Pure randoms can go the moment they bring it crash related retirements. And add an option to ram a car if it's ahead of you.
Then add a new acheivement Schumi start - win championship by start crashing the guy in 2nd place.
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Quote ( Peter-michael Watkins @ July 2nd 2014,09:07:14 ) and that is what we all want
You speak for everyone??? I know that's not true as I know some that would disagree :p
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Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ July 2nd 2014,10:20:37 ) Quote ( Peter-michael Watkins @ July 2nd 2014,09:07:14 )
and that is what we all want
You speak for everyone??? I know that's not true as I know some that would disagree :p
Okay everyone is a bit too outspoken^^ but i think we can agree that a lot of people wants the game to be like it is right now.
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Quote ( Peter-michael Watkins @ July 2nd 2014,09:57:18 ) when you do a late qualy for example then you can figure out on what strategy your oppents are so you do the same and in the end we have races where we have every driver on the same tires with the same amount of fuel and the only difference would be the car.
I need that kind of super power you have. When I do late qualys, the only thing I do is think "my qualys will be crap again".
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ July 2nd 2014,10:44:49 ) Quote ( Peter-michael Watkins @ July 2nd 2014,09:57:18 )
when you do a late qualy for example then you can figure out on what strategy your oppents are so you do the same and in the end we have races where we have every driver on the same tires with the same amount of fuel and the only difference would be the car.
I need that kind of super power you have. When I do late qualys, the only thing I do is think "my qualys will be crap again".
Its not a super power but when you teammates that are around the strenght of the guys in you group and you know the strategy of your teammates you can not 100% figure out but get an idea in what way it will go. iam not saying i know 100% but as an indikator it works pretty good.
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Not really relevant, but in another online management game I play, Blackout Rugby, a decision was made not to have yellow and red cards, as recieiving a card would be just a random number thing (albeit affected by the player's aggression and discipline) but could well be the cause of losing a match you would otherwise have won - so very much like randoms in this game. The current thinking is that winning/losing by such random events does not improve the game experience, just introduces irritation. The added realism of such cards, therefore, is not worth the damage it does to the game experience.
This may change in the future, if the groundswell for the introduction of cards to the game grows alarmingly, but it is interesting to see how different games take different viewpoints on such randoms.
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For the ones who think that randoms add no fun to the game:
Most of the ones who say such are in Rookie, I suggest you to promote to upper levels and you will see some things:
- Not all randoms (not the ones you now call "randoms") are true randoms and most them can be predicted and avoided.
- True randoms add fun, and allow other players to achieve a nice result, wich trhey wouldn´t be able to achieve in normal circumstances.
- Imagine Elite without random factors, all with the same car, great drivers, great staff, and opf course, if those guys (and lady) are there is because they are able to do accurate calcs. My question to those who think randoms add no fun is, who should win then?
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Quote ( Fran Betancort @ July 2nd 2014,11:22:42 ) - Imagine Elite without random factors, all with the same car, great drivers, great staff, and opf course, if those guys (and lady) are there is because they are able to do accurate calcs. My question to those who think randoms add no fun is, who should win then?
Like it is now? The lucky front runner guy that finish the season with ZERO randoms. Fair enough? ;o)
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I mostly agree with you, Fran, but the problem is the effect those pure randoms have. If this was a game where you could easily rebuild, let it be. But the problem is you need years of preparation to attack the higher leagues and then a couple of badly misplaced randoms could ruin that in a matter of days.
In Elite most people's attention is turned towards the case of Rimantas and his recurrent bad luck. However, despite I truly sympathize with him, I think the main issue isn't for the front runners, but for other people who are trying to establish themselves there. It isn't any funny to me to see the careful preparation of several managers go to waste not because they were worse, but because they were unlucky.
Some things I would change about pure randoms are:
- Getting your car to the garage if there is no decent chance calculated by the game engine that you will complete the 90% rule
- No moti lose if you get out of the race due to a random . This part is very important. Once I had a true random -14% worn engine, lap 14, in a ~20% estimated engine wear race-. That made my driver lose quite a lot of motivation, so my driver maximized his motivation around 8 races after he was supposed to do (this is, I ran 8 races with 60-70 motivation less than I should have). And that in amateur, where you get motivation for showing your ugly face. In higher leagues it would have been impossible.
- No 90% rule for you if you get out of your race due to a random (granted, it could benefit some people if they get out of a race early due to a random, because they get money and they don't add too much wear to their cars, but it is not exploitable because it wouldn't include start crashes or true technical failures)
With these changes I wouldn't mind if the rate of randoms was even increased.
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Quote ( Fran Betancort @ July 2nd 2014,11:22:42 ) For the ones who think that randoms add no fun to the game:
Most of the ones who say such are in Rookie, I suggest you to promote to upper levels and you will see some things Randoms ruined my first and only season in Master. Count me in the group that thinks randoms not only add no fun to the game, they actually take fun away.
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It's easy enough to support the randoms system when you aren't getting many randoms yourself.
Personally I think the system needs to be altered. There's being unlucky and then there's just stupid. After seeing my race analysis I had another random later on (the dumb broken steering wheel). That totals to 4 in these last 2 races for me. I think that crosses the line from just being bad luck to just being a total piss take.
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The possibility of randoms i think is a positiv aspect in the racing proces, but as i noticed some randoms are maybe far away from realism. So it might be possible to get a puncture, but the possibility should increase with factors like 'overtaking risk' and/or "aggeressivnes of the driver'.
Currently it seems not to be combined with logical factors.
My disappointment about the the random i got in last race was really big because of the way it was implemented.
79 1:21.149 1 Hard Cloudy 21° 30% - 80 1:39.729 2 Hard Cloudy 21° 30% Puncture, Pit
Feels nearly like Mika Hakkinen in Spain 2001 ^^
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ July 2nd 2014,11:57:10 ) Getting your car to the garage if there is no decent chance calculated by the game engine that you will complete the 90% rule
Hm, I don't know so much about the calculated 90% part, that might be difficult to implement and would limit the thinking on the managers part.
Now..... The following option has potential:
Retire the car if technical problem cannot be repaired and there are more than X laps
This would require the manager make a calculated decision (similar to the already existent "pit if technical problem" decision) on whether and when to retire their car if they are experiencing technical problems. Essentially accepting finishing outside the 90% rule for reduced wear.
The rest I do not agree with at all.
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Would you mind to tell me why don't you agree with the rest, Daniel? You are still getting the "fun" of taking a manager out of the race, but you are limiting some of the very bad long term consequences of the random.
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Quote ( Sam Tipple @ July 2nd 2014,12:31:05 ) It's easy enough to support the randoms system when you aren't getting many randoms yourself.
Personally I think the system needs to be altered. There's being unlucky and then there's just stupid. After seeing my race analysis I had another random later on (the dumb broken steering wheel). That totals to 4 in these last 2 races for me. I think that crosses the line from just being bad luck to just being a total piss take.
Not that it really changes your point, but having multiple randoms in the same race is a lesser problem compared to having them all in separate races.
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I wouldn´t mind if any option like the ones Edwin say were implemented to help people deal with randoms and what a randoms includes, economy, motivation, sponsors (there was a change recently to help with this) etc... I think would be a good adition to the game, but need to be discussed to se pros and cons and to avoid people exploiting it like Edwin pointed in his example.
But I notice something wich seems quite fun to me, most of the "randoms complainers" never say the benefits they have had due to randoms to opponents, and I´m pretty sure they have won positions and even points due to this.
Also, despite there can be seasons where you can have many randoms (read many like 4 or 5 as it´s pretty rare to have more), there are other seasons where you get none. In the none randoms season those "complainers" get points, positions and cash due to opponents bad luck, but I´ve NEVER seen them saying thanks to randoms for the extra profit ;)
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(can't quote because I'm on my phone)
@Mikko: That is true of course. But at the rate I've been getting them I wouldn't be surprised if I got more next race.
@Fran: But the small gain made by someone else's random is nothing compared to the loss made by having a random yourself. Infact, the combined small gains made by others' randoms over a few seasons doesn't make up for say a random tyre puncture. For example, I gain 300k by gaining a position over someone. By having a tyre puncture and my race being ended I lose about 6 million (maybe more or less, can't remember precisely). That's probably why people complain.
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Quote ( Sam Tipple @ July 2nd 2014,16:10:19 ) That's probably why people complain. I had a puncture on lap 70 in Magny Cours and I didn't complain that much. My money balance is deteriorating and I really could have done with the extra $5mill, like that has quite negatively affected my next two seasons. But it happens.
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tbh, people that can't handle the random machine...and i effin well hate it and support any decent suggestion on how it can be better implemented, usually give up on the game at some point (either temporary or permanent). For me, that is the biggest loss with randoms...forget the loss of money, sponsors...cos it happens to everyone at some critical point - that much is true - but the loss of someone from the game because of it....I genuinely think it's sad for the game and the community when that happens.
There really isn't a worse thing than a random...and though the impact is far less damaging in amateur, once you're in the serious business of pro...and see the same stupid randoms in Elite with sicko-le-helmet happening to seasoned champs....it's extremely disheartening....the current period of your career can be destroyed as a result. The random part of the game needs a cooling mechanism when you get one...Toygun had a good idea in the elite thread...
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Quote ( Sam Tipple @ July 2nd 2014,16:10:19 ) (can't quote because I'm on my phone)
@Mikko: That is true of course. But at the rate I've been getting them I wouldn't be surprised if I got more next race.
@Fran: But the small gain made by someone else's random is nothing compared to the loss made by having a random yourself. Infact, the combined small gains made by others' randoms over a few seasons doesn't make up for say a random tyre puncture. For example, I gain 300k by gaining a position over someone. By having a tyre puncture and my race being ended I lose about 6 million (maybe more or less, can't remember precisely). That's probably why people complain. It isn't even $300k per position in Elite, and you can pretty much guarantee +2 positions per race from other people's randoms. There will be some net gainers, and some net losers, but overall it is a zero sum game.
Randoms have, and will continue to, helped people promote or relegate. It is that unpredictability that is both frustrating and rewarding all at the same time. I think that without randoms the game becomes significantly more predictable (read boring).
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Quote ( Sam Tipple @ July 2nd 2014,16:10:19 ) @Fran: But the small gain made by someone else's random is nothing compared to the loss made by having a random yourself. Infact, the combined small gains made by others' randoms over a few seasons doesn't make up for say a random tyre puncture. For example, I gain 300k by gaining a position over someone. By having a tyre puncture and my race being ended I lose about 6 million (maybe more or less, can't remember precisely). That's probably why people complain.
You just count on your small gain but you forget something obvious, your opponent lost ;)
Isn´t it the same lost for your opponent than for you? How you deal with it makes the difference between you and your opponents ;)
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I dont see how a random (true random,not a misscalculation of setup or predictions) has any positive impact on the game. The only thing that comes close to being positive is on a selfish level. ie when it happens to someone else and you gain from it. What about throwing a few positive randoms in,like now and then have a race where a car part gives an under expected speed to the race,like engine has 20% extra power or breaks help the break line or suspension help you take corners or give extra speed or something,instead of throwing you back 40-50-60 seconds behind.
How is it good when a player goes sets up the race to get a point to retain? or win the season finally? or spends money to secure his/her sponsor? or knowing his drivers favourite track? or has a chance in the rain? or to beat the cup rival? only to have it dashed by a totally random incident? how is it good?
Yes,accept it is part of the game and just bend over and take it,but how is it a good thing?
As for it happening to everyone,even in Elite. Sure but no manager has exact same car,exact same driver stats,exact same tyres,exact same setups,fuel,risks ect wether in elite or rookie,so saying every driver in elite will all be equal and a random now and then helps this is just bs. Every manager sets up for the race the best they know how,if every manager pins the ability of his/her car,staff,utilities etc to the finest point then all these factors will be thrown in and the best of it gets a win or close to it because they deserve it.
Randoms suck. Yes they do.
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