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Topic: [F1] 2014 Formula 1 Japanese Grand Prix |
558 replies
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Such a shame the race had to end in that way, i couldn't keep the facepalm away in comparing the BBC broadcasted replay and how they did not spot Bianchi's car at all in the shots in the first place, or the fact that they rushed behind the tractor away from Sutil's car to help the frenchman out.
I mean the amount of shots we saw of Marussia with gloomy faces should've given it away almost instantly.
Still hope he can recover from that and be back racing in the near future, he's got Raikkonen's seat waiting for him at Ferrari
And in agreement with Phil, they should police it better, much like they do with a SC lap, set a fixed sector time which they cannot exceed during that time, i mean they are supposed to, but it's rarely policed unless it's in qualifying
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Quote ( Phil Maunder @ October 5th 2014,17:12:43 ) 1) it is the corner exit, we can't see the marshals on the approach to the corner
If it's past the crash site and there is no safety car, it is obviously green flag.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ October 5th 2014,17:23:40 ) If it's past the crash site and there is no safety car, it is obviously green flag.
It's the tower the drivers see when coming down the short 'straight' section before dunlop tightens. So the one they see on the run up to the accident. It is also not past the accident as can be seen in the BBC iplayer footage at around 2:49.10 onwards. Where in fact they're waving a green flag whilst there are two cars and a recovery vehicle there!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b04jvzwj/formula-1-2014...
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I see only 1 green flag there and it is just after the crash site.
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ October 5th 2014,17:23:40 ) If it's past the crash site and there is no safety car, it is obviously green flag.
I don't understand what you mean. We don't see the approach to the corner at all in any camera shots. Why is it obvious Bianchi would have a green flag?
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I meant that the one after the crash site is obviously green as there is no reason why it would be yellow.
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Quote ( Michael Winkley @ October 5th 2014,16:10:22 ) BBC coverage took nearly 20 minutes to recognize that it wasn't Sutil that was injured; camera crew picked it up very quickly judging by the sheer number of times they cut to their pit crew "for no obvious reason."
On the other hand, the camera crew didn't show any footage of Bianchi crashing, or an angle of his wrecked Marussia, at any point during that time period. The only sign being shown of Bianchi even retiring from the race was in the standings on the bottom of the screen.
So up until the announcement was made that Bianchi was injured, how were the commentators, or the viewers for that matter, supposed to know that the medical car had been sent out for Bianchi, and not for Sutil or a track marshal as the commentators initially thought?
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ October 5th 2014,17:35:19 ) I meant that the one after the crash site is obviously green as there is no reason why it would be yellow.
If that was the case why did they then switch to a waved yellow? It is directly behind the crash site and would be what the driver sees approaching it.
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Quote ( Paul Bright @ October 5th 2014,17:42:47 ) If that was the case why did they then switch to a waved yellow?
I dunno. If they deployed safety car then it's obviously full course yellow. Or marshall changed his mind. Anyway, drivers should understand that the yellow flags earlier affect until the green flag which is after the crash site.
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Not that it matters much but someone should at least mention what a good race Eriksson had. His fastest lap ranked 14th, just half a second behind Bottas and well ahead of Marussia, Lotus and Sauber. Great pace and race from the Swede today despite that early mishap.
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I've just had a closer look at the approach to the corner (The accident was on the later part of Dunlop where it opens out) Tower 12 is the one the drivers see right from where they come round the entry to the corner. It would be the most obvious if not the only warning spot for the accident and would literally be right behind it from the drivers eye view. when approaching.
Bianchis car looks to be directly in front of it although might technically be a couple of yards before it in terms of the track. Even if that was the case the waving of a green flag directly in the eye line of the approaching drivers was a very poor decision.
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It's definitely strange. It's a shame we don't have more (ie any) footage of Bianchi actually leaving the circuit. The footage of the green flag waving is when Bianchi has already crashed so.... maybe it was yellow before & they changed it to green afterwards? (really giving marshals benefit of the doubt there)
I'm not so sure it was double waved yellows. It definitely should have been... if it was someone's mistake or decision to go green then that's a disaster :(
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Quote ( Jay O`dowd @ October 5th 2014,17:37:52 ) Quote ( Michael Winkley @ October 5th 2014,16:10:22 )
BBC coverage took nearly 20 minutes to recognize that it wasn't Sutil that was injured; camera crew picked it up very quickly judging by the sheer number of times they cut to their pit crew "for no obvious reason."
On the other hand, the camera crew didn't show any footage of Bianchi crashing, or an angle of his wrecked Marussia, at any point during that time period. The only sign being shown of Bianchi even retiring from the race was in the standings on the bottom of the screen.
So up until the announcement was made that Bianchi was injured, how were the commentators, or the viewers for that matter, supposed to know that the medical car had been sent out for Bianchi, and not for Sutil or a track marshal as the commentators initially thought?
The cars have location transponders. Combine that with their rolling data showing Bianchi retiring after Sutil, plus the other stuff mentioned.
You pay peanuts, you get monkeys.
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Quote ( Phil Maunder @ October 5th 2014,18:11:10 ) The footage of the green flag waving is when Bianchi has already crashed so.... maybe it was yellow before & they changed it to green afterwards? (really giving marshals benefit of the doubt there)
It is after Bianchis crash (and the tower is level with where the exit road joins the circuit so pretty much level with the crash site), it would be a demented marshall who chose to wave yellow when Sutil crashed then thought 'hey no danger now i'll wave green' when there were two cars and a crane on the run off area!
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Bianchi is making progress and can now breath on his own.
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I watched on Sky sports as the coverage and commentary is far better than the BBC! They also (Croft & Brundle) didn't realise/or at least tell us the viewers a 2nd car was involved until Hamiltion had caught the safety car up which was well over another lap before Brundle realised Bianchi was also out and then put it all together. Maybe all TV crews knew instantly it was serious and didn't commentate on Jules. I remember been told & shown nothing about Massa for a short while too the other year.
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Quote ( Phil Maunder @ October 5th 2014,18:11:10 ) It's definitely strange. It's a shame we don't have more (ie any) footage of Bianchi actually leaving the circuit. The footage of the green flag waving is when Bianchi has already crashed so.... maybe it was yellow before & they changed it to green afterwards? (really giving marshals benefit of the doubt there)
Why would the flag be anything other than green since the marshal post is after the incident zone. The marshal post before should've been waving double yellow flags which the FIA have said was happening (and we have no reason to not believe them). Extra footage exists and the stewards have watched it but it was not made available on the world feed.
Quote ( Thomas Lindgren @ October 5th 2014,18:47:30 ) Bianchi is making progress and can now breath on his own.
L'Equipe reported that a few hours ago, it's reassuring to see other sources confirming the same.
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Possible, they did show lots of replays of Massa crashing at Hungary though, whereas with Bianchi we haven't seen anything. Doesn't appear to be any footage for whatever reason.
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Quote ( Phil Maunder @ October 5th 2014,18:56:10 ) Possible, they did show lots of replays of Massa crashing at Hungary though, whereas with Bianchi we haven't seen anything. Doesn't appear to be any footage for whatever reason.
Not initially they didn't. It was a good 5 minutes after the incident before Massa crashed before they showed it - probably after reviewing if it was suitable. F1 produce the race and distribute to broadcasters so wont publish any footage of this one. I imagine if a camera picked up the Bianchi crash it would be too graphic to show on British TV anyway although you might get a fan filming from the grandstands etc appear at some point!
Edit; Come to think of it they must have some footage! They cut back to the camera filming the stewards recovering Sutils car after the accident so at some point Bianchi's car would have been in the shot between the live coverage
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As a German forced to watch RTL, I am usually the first to jump into some commentator slating.
But it has a reason that RTL, BBC, German and English Sky and ORF (Austria TV) all took ages to realise what was actually happening, and that was an unexpected situation and a lack of overview.
Who of you knew instantly what was going on? I happened to make a lucky guess based on the confusion and distress of the marshalls and from the feel something was under the tractor, but it was no more than that - A guess. The commentators also had no additional informations (aside of the standings on the bottom showing Bianchi OUT), as the computer info they usually have was not updated, so they ended up having to do the same thing I did - Guess what is going on. And they went for the more likely option - That Sutil, who they had seen crashing before, actually had some injuries.
And of course, "Ecclestone TV" (aka the ones controlling the images to broadcast for the TV stations) and their respective cameramen knew why they were showing Marussia pitcrew while commentators were clueless, they also were the ones that had the option to rewatch the incident and broadcast it (if it had been allowed by Whiting).
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I am very worried this will end up leading to a front roll cage or canopies which will make the cars look repulsive.
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i agree, but i guessed they had reversed over a Marshall or something when they where all waving there hands
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Quote ( Jack Benson @ October 5th 2014,19:13:07 ) I am very worried this will end up leading to a front roll cage or canopies which will make the cars look repulsive.
yeah I think they should increase the risk of fatalities to make the car look nice
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Quote ( Jack Benson @ October 5th 2014,19:13:07 )
I am very worried this will end up leading to a front roll cage or canopies which will make the cars look repulsive.
Quote ( Finn Shaw-McIver @ October 5th 2014,19:16:08 ) yeah I think they should increase the risk of fatalities to make the car look nice
You cant eliminate all risk! That would make it a completely different form of motor sport. I hope it doesn't come to it but one fatality every 20 years in a high octane dangerous sport wouldn't be the worst stat!
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Quote ( Finn Shaw-McIver @ October 5th 2014,19:16:08 ) Quote ( Jack Benson @ October 5th 2014,19:13:07 )
I am very worried this will end up leading to a front roll cage or canopies which will make the cars look repulsive.
yeah I think they should increase the risk of fatalities to make the car look nice
I'm saying its not necessary. And it isn't its only required for freak accidents. Make F1 closed cockpit and thats another USP out the window. Fans will be scared off.
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Dan - not meaning to be pedantic but F1 has had fatalities since Senna/Ratzenburger & they have all been Marshals. I can think of 3 but I've got a feeling it's more .... I didn't look it up exactly.
And looking back I do wonder how it's not more. Like for example I'm remembering turn 1 at Nurburgring in the wet that time (was it 07/ 08). & then the time the medical car pulled over & the passenger door got wiped out by a swerving car.... about 1 second before the doctor was about to step out. & more recently at Canadian GP I remember a marshal falling over while picking up debris with a car coming..
Certainly a few face palm moments you wonder how can happen in the most sophisticated sport in the world.
I guess what I'm saying is it might not hurt to just blitz the culture of how F1 deals with incidents.
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Phil - Good point. i was solely thinking about the risk to drivers as a canopy would only really be for their protection.
Marshalls & spectators alike should be entitled to there safety more so than the drivers. After all they are not the ones who knowingly put their lives on the line.
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Quote ( Michal Szopinski @ October 5th 2014,16:09:28 ) Quote ( Phil Maunder @ October 5th 2014,15:54:47 )
Question to all the guys blaming the FIA...
If it turns out that there was no evidence of Bianchi backing off due to the double waved yellows - would you still blame the FIA?
Yes, every time, it's their job to ensure that even if a driver doesn't adhere to regulations, there is minimum risk of someone getting hurt, and having a crane and marshals out there in a dangerous position without a SC does not fulfill that obligation. There are certain things out of their control, but deploying the SC when needed isn't one of them. They are supposed to do everything that is within their control to ensure safety on track. They failed. Sure that, if Bianchi has not backed off the accident is his fault, but he is not responsible for the crane being there. He should have a barrier to go into, not a crane. It's very unfortunate how he hit it, the same as it was very unfortunate how Schumacher hit his head on the rock, but the rock had the right to be there, the crane didn't without the SC on the track. The bottom line is that it was a risky recovery of Sutil's car, regardless of how fast Bianchi was going. I definitely agree with him fia is to be blamed!!
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it must have been awful for Sutil especially, I probably would have thrown up if I saw a car crushed under a tractor with someone still inside it
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what about not allowing cranes on the track? cars are not heavy at all.. we in construction use lifts to carry about the same weight using long booms, I believe, a rough terrain forklift with an adapter can be useful to move accident vehicles out of the track without modifying track safety. Is just my opinion
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