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Tema: The Case Against FOBY+Game Calculators for Rookies |
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#61 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 15:02:41
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Quote ( Kshitij Sharma @ November 24th 2020,19:09:57 ) In higher leagues it's not about the setup,fuel,tyre,wear only it's much more than that .All the managers racing there have perfect setups,fuel,tyre calcuation and all try to get the best drivers,it becomes much more a financial and strategic game about how you manage money,sponsors,testing,pha,upgrade/downgrade of parts ,your results,your staff and facilities.
You're making my point for me. If in higher levels manager all have perfect setups, then there's no longer any gameplay related to setups remaining to be had. The FOBY setup puzzle has been solved, and all that remains is 10 minutes of data entry into whatever tools they use.
If you remove the FOBY setup puzzle, it can be replaced with a system that requires active management. But doing that means removing a core part of the game, with a ton of resultant changes and new systems, to the point it's a different game / a GPRO 2.
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#62 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 15:50:20
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Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 23rd 2020,01:42:31 ) I don't like the idea of PTW features, it simply transforms the game into a different one. Same goes for FOBY policy, revoking it would change the game into another game. And to be honest, I believe this game owes its longevity, in big part, to the Admins decision to both keep the game FOBY and free of Pay to Win features
Sorry to inform you, Florencia, but the game is ALREADY a PTW. Its just that the money is not going to GPRO Ltd but to other sites that offers relatively accurate numbers in their "gadgets". They are pretty happy GPRO does not offer similar tools so they can grap all the money from those players interested in their services...
The longevity of GPRO has nothing to do with the PTW policy from Admins, but to the quality of the game and to the great community that makes this place a fun and healthy one to be part of.
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#63 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 16:42:20
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Quote ( Adagmar B Covolo @ November 27th 2020,15:50:20 ) Sorry to inform you, Florencia, but the game is ALREADY a PTW. Its just that the money is not going to GPRO Ltd but to other sites that offers relatively accurate numbers in their "gadgets". They are pretty happy GPRO does not offer similar tools so they can grap all the money from those players interested in their services... Unfortunately.
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#64 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 16:53:56
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Quote ( Adagmar B Covolo @ November 27th 2020,15:50:20 ) Sorry to inform you, Florencia, but the game is ALREADY a PTW. Its just that the money is not going to GPRO Ltd but to other sites that offers relatively accurate numbers in their "gadgets". They are pretty happy GPRO does not offer similar tools so they can grap all the money from those players interested in their services...
Couldn't disagree more.
Sure, the gadgets you're using might get you as far as PRO, but unless you truly understand the game, and how each element affects your pace, and at which level each element comes into it's own, you'll be adequate at best.
It is not GPRO's fault that people wish to cheat the rules and pay for information which they should be discovering themselves, or within a team. Nor should they change the game to try and profit from people being willing to take advantage of such sites.
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I would not have continued playing this game early on, if I had not found a calc online
But, there is plenty of other shit to figure out in this game, beside setups, car wear and tires.
Plus, these online calcs aren´t that accurate, but take the tediousness out of the game.
You get the rough settings and tweak it.
I know, tediousness for one, is some other guys fantastic challenge.. and thats cool :)
I just don´t understand why some people get the tits twisted over this... its not like its good enough for any major success in the game, but it retains players.
If you want to figure everything out yourself, do that.... Leave others alone, as long as they don´t DA or something really shitty like that.
But, I would much rather these calc payments to go to Gpro!!!
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#66 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 17:28:13
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I have an idea: maybe there can be a set of race analysis sheets that is available to anyone freely.
This way new players have something to work with, without the need to run a couple of races blindly due to lack of data. They would be able to do some estimates of tyres and fuel, but no one is handed any ready formula or calculator.
That's a very rough idea, so I'm not specifying how many sheets, where to take data from, which other actions to provide other than race analysis (car update?).
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#67 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 17:38:02
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I dont understand why is there even the argument of removing spiders, what does that accomplish? Making collecting data more tedious? Making it necessary for managers to manually copy/paste race analysis reports? It accomplishes nothing to make the game intellectually harder, just more tedious. The game is already hard to collect data from (unless you are in a team), there's no need to make it even harder.
A race engineer that new managers have access to during the first couple of seasons that gives out advice for certain parts of the game is a solid idea, in my opinion. I saw someone mention it above at it seems to strike a certain balance.
Plus, the whole "I had it hard so new players have to have it hard as well" mentality is kinda toxic and is probably going to result in this game losing popularity over time (which it already is). No game is perfect, and neither is GPRO, we shouldn't ignore it's flaws.
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#68 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 17:40:11
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When I started, there were none (online calculator). ... and I'm here.
I think this game is so complex that online calculators alone do not lead to success.
A more crucial problem is that some of the money is migrating elsewhere.
Do I see it wrong?
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#69 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 17:49:44
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ November 27th 2020,17:18:59 )
I just don´t understand why some people get the tits twisted over this... its not like its good enough for any major success in the game, but it retains players.
If it's so good, then shouldn't Vlad start offering them instead? More players, more money and more resources for development. Win-win-win. Right?
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Quote ( Adagmar B Covolo @ November 27th 2020,15:50:20 ) Sorry to inform you, Florencia, but the game is ALREADY a PTW. Its just that the money is not going to GPRO Ltd but to other sites that offers relatively accurate numbers in their "gadgets". They are pretty happy GPRO does not offer similar tools so they can grap all the money from those players interested in their services...
The longevity of GPRO has nothing to do with the PTW policy from Admins, but to the quality of the game and to the great community that makes this place a fun and healthy one to be part of.
Good point. I think introducing official GPRO calculator will steal the game nerve, and lot of valuable players will simply leave the game. However, looking at Prohibition Law in US we can see that it might be good to take control over that black market instead of prohibiting it.
Discouraging people of using those black market calculators doesn't cancel it and rather allows 3rd party steal money from GPRO community.
What if GPRO introduces new game section "Calculator Suppliers" (by analogue with "Tyre Suppliers"). This would contain approved suppliers, players may sign contract for supporter credits for a season depending on cost, features, rating.
Additionally, if player signs contract with any Calculator Supplier, this could be marked near his name in Group list, like selected Tyre Supplier for a season.
Suppliers would have to pass certain procedures (API compliance etc) before approval, and receive share from each signed contract.
In that case GPRO will still be free of pay to win features and game nerve may remain.
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#71 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 18:08:59
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#72 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 18:20:31
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Quote ( Florencia Caro @ November 23rd 2020,01:42:31 ) I don't like the idea of PTW features, it simply transforms the game into a different one. Same goes for FOBY policy, revoking it would change the game into another game. And to be honest, I believe this game owes its longevity, in big part, to the Admins decision to both keep the game FOBY and free of Pay to Win features.
Totally agree with you on the PTW point Flo, it would take any skill out of the game and the Elite Champion each season would be the manager with the highest disposable income. That would be the death of the game for me.
In relation to the game still being FOBY though I disagree as it certainly isn't these days. I started a thread about it a while ago to see what everybody else thought on the subject and you can see from the comments from long time players that things have definitely changed on that front (for the worse in my opinion for what it's worth). These days you get shot down for even daring to say FOBY a lot of the time. It was the whole FOBY thing that made the game attractive for me and kept me coming back for more, every success felt like an achievement. I don't think it would feel the same now if I was new to the game.
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Quote ( Athol Kay @ November 27th 2020,15:02:41 )
Quote ( Kshitij Sharma @ November 24th 2020,19:09:57 )
In higher leagues it's not about the setup,fuel,tyre,wear only it's much more than that .All the managers racing there have perfect setups,fuel,tyre calcuation and all try to get the best drivers,it becomes much more a financial and strategic game about how you manage money,sponsors,testing,pha,upgrade/downgrade of parts ,your results,your staff and facilities.
You're making my point for me. If in higher levels manager all have perfect setups, then there's no longer any gameplay related to setups remaining to be had. The FOBY setup puzzle has been solved, and all that remains is 10 minutes of data entry into whatever tools they use.
If you remove the FOBY setup puzzle, it can be replaced with a system that requires active management. But doing that means removing a core part of the game, with a ton of resultant changes and new systems, to the point it's a different game / a GPRO 2.
management related to different areas in master and elite is much difficult than finding setups,fuel,tyre .etc on pen and paper on scratch even if you change the formulas .It gets very tough to get all the things right .
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#74 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 19:13:25
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Quote ( Kshitij Sharma @ November 27th 2020,18:25:11 ) Quote ( Athol Kay @ November 27th 2020,15:02:41 )
Quote ( Kshitij Sharma @ November 24th 2020,19:09:57 )
In higher leagues it's not about the setup,fuel,tyre,wear only it's much more than that .All the managers racing there have perfect setups,fuel,tyre calcuation and all try to get the best drivers,it becomes much more a financial and strategic game about how you manage money,sponsors,testing,pha,upgrade/downgrade of parts ,your results,your staff and facilities.
You're making my point for me. If in higher levels manager all have perfect setups, then there's no longer any gameplay related to setups remaining to be had. The FOBY setup puzzle has been solved, and all that remains is 10 minutes of data entry into whatever tools they use.
If you remove the FOBY setup puzzle, it can be replaced with a system that requires active management. But doing that means removing a core part of the game, with a ton of resultant changes and new systems, to the point it's a different game / a GPRO 2.
management related to different areas in master and elite is much difficult than finding setups,fuel,tyre .etc on pen and paper on scratch even if you change the formulas .It gets very tough to get all the things right .
Then again, there's no reason to worry if setups are done automatically, because other parts of the game are harder to manage.
What I'm saying is the entire setup puzzle is completely solved, and could be replaced by systems that require an active management. As it currently stands, TI is a worthless stat, a large reason to have a TD is gone, and trying to play the game as intended wastes several million a season trying to set the cars up properly. Doing 8 practice laps a race is just throwing money away.
You yourself are saying there's no significant gameplay challenge in doing setups. So why not replace it with something that does provide a gameplay challenge.
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#75 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 19:20:14
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@Athol Kay (P9) ,Technical director is much more than just getting the setups ,probably you should try to discover that .
Just the games in rookie and amateur has become monotonous and just about hording more and more money and preparing for higher levels in amateur .
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#76 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 19:59:15
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Quote ( David Andrewartha @ November 27th 2020,18:20:31 )
Totally agree with you on the PTW point Flo, it would take any skill out of the game and the Elite Champion each season would be the manager with the highest disposable income.
Hm, Im not so sure a supporter credit here or there to calc CT on Pipis would help all that much with elite... In fact there’s already a PTW feature which DOES help with Elite and that’s the ability to pay for past data if one was not keeping records at the time.
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#77 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 20:09:28
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Quote ( Kshitij Sharma @ November 27th 2020,19:20:14 ) @Athol Kay (P9) ,Technical director is much more than just getting the setups ,probably you should try to discover that .
Just the games in rookie and amateur has become monotonous and just about hording more and more money and preparing for higher levels in amateur .
And now you're talking down to me for no reason, I understand pretty well what the TDs do.
"A large reason" is not saying the same thing as "the only reason".
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Quote ( Athol Kay @ November 27th 2020,19:13:25 ) What I'm saying is the entire setup puzzle is completely solved
Might be, but I I think a team like Versant (mikko's team) where the only culprit started far behind everyone else in S30, is a better example of how this game works:
Mikko for example - after I think like ~70 season by now and called a game dinosaur often - quite recentently admitted he still learned new things every season. This might be people as well as gameplay related stuff.
I also don't see someone like Roland Postle complain about the game becomming dull after 7 championships.. On the contrarary, there's always another challenge...
A bad manager with excellent tools will never become an Elite champ. An excellent manager with average tools however might be... Only to say that tools are just a part of the story, yet certainly not the solution itself!
Hence I don't understand this call for formula changes at all; within half a year the same status quo would be reached although we might experience some more team changes during that half year.
After some 20 seasons I'm only starting to see how deep the game really goes. Some did that quicker and more successful, but I don't think that is the point of this always susprising game!
Edit: In addition let's take more recent champs like Jasper and Yug as well... They probably have all sorted to like 98-99 maybe even a 100%... There's not a single time a recent champ quited because of it they figured it all out... Those champs that did, did so because of the time it involved to continue their high level of game play (or due to a gamplay change they didn't agree with... )
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#79 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 21:41:30
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#80 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 22:08:50
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Quote ( Erik Harken @ November 27th 2020,19:59:15 ) In fact there’s already a PTW feature which DOES help with Elite and that’s the ability to pay for past data if one was not keeping records at the time.
I wouldn't classify that as PTW, you're only paying to release past data you;ve already generated yourself at a time when you may not have had the funds to pay for supporter status. You could've recorded that data manually at the time anyway, it's just more convenient to have it a mouse click away, hardly in the realms of PTW in my opinion.
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#81 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 22:47:25
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That's a good point. I suppose it's simply to say that there are already paid elements to this game, and imo the only ones suggested in this thread aren't game changing enough to effect Elites. Although, even as OP, I can already see some problems with my own suggestions :p
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Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ November 27th 2020,17:49:44 ) If it's so good, then shouldn't Vlad start offering them instead? More players, more money and more resources for development. Win-win-win. Right?
Thats exactly the problem, people will whine about pay to win..
Most Good teams have their good calcs and/or spreadsheets, that gets them success.
Here we are not talking about pay to win, as you can't win Elite (can't even get to elite) with basic calcs, but to pay to not have to bother with all that fiddly formula stuff, but pay to still enjoy the game..
Not everyone is a programming genius like you Jukka, but can still like the game.
I hate OBP, but I still think those that enjoy that shitty way of playing, should go for it. :)
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#83 objavljeno 27 Stu 2020, 23:01:17
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Quote ( Erik Harken @ November 27th 2020,22:47:25 ) That's a good point. I suppose it's simply to say that there are already paid elements to this game, and imo the only ones suggested in this thread aren't game changing enough to effect Elites. Although, even as OP, I can already see some problems with my own suggestions :p
To be fair to you Erik I haven't read the whole thread in it's entirety, I just picked up on the PTW bits to be honest. I always avoid games where you can buy your way to the top but I don't think that's what you were advocating.
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Quote ( Erik Harken @ November 27th 2020,22:47:25 ) That's a good point. I suppose it's simply to say that there are already paid elements to this game, and imo the only ones suggested in this thread aren't game changing enough to effect Elites. Although, even as OP, I can already see some problems with my own suggestions :p
Those paid elements don't reach Elite and if they do they use what's paid for primarily as data storage. I did that research ;)
Those paid elements are rubbish at best compared to those that invested some time in pretty much the same thing. Yet after some 2nd thoughts that might be exactly what those paid things might be producing: 'just enough'with the idea that people start to do their own stuff.. And honestly that won't be that bad, given this topic comments would it? (apart from potentially taking money from GPRO)
Either way, You're an Edicife now. Definitely a team that is able to explain why those are 'strange' thoughts. Ioannis definitely could, probably would & sincerely should... ;)
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