Quote ( Cameron Halsall @ October 11th 2020,21:04:13 )
Purely based on character and humility, Schumacher.
That's some absurd criteria to judge an F1 driver by. Character is just your way of making it totally subjective, and humility is probably a negative when it comes to actually doing the job. Some fake it better than others, but neither of these two did.
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ October 11th 2020,21:12:51 )
Quote ( Cameron Halsall @ October 11th 2020,21:04:13 )
Maybe to the time when Senna and The Professor Prost were going head to head at it... Although Senna did resort into similar tricks as Schumi Or even further back when the drivers really drove cars instead of computers
Take a look what The Professor did a year before Senna's intentional crash, and he was not penalized. Just remember FIA was run by a French guy, who was a close friend of Prost. Senna's crash into Prost was a potitical act.
It’s all irrelevant discussion, 15 years time we’ll be talking about how Lance Stroll only won his 10th world title because the Aston Martin is the only car capable of winning.
only difference is Stroll will have had teammates who aren’t mediocre while winning said titles.
And for the sake of fair discussion, Lance won’t have crashed into anyone to decide a title and will still have a sense of fashion.
Quote ( Cameron Halsall @ October 11th 2020,21:04:13 )
Purely based on character and humility, Schumacher.
That's some absurd criteria to judge an F1 driver by. Character is just your way of making it totally subjective, and humility is probably a negative when it comes to actually doing the job. Some fake it better than others, but neither of these two did.
Character is observable, a person's actions can be defined such they can have moral weight. And besides, what's the point in using statistics to justify one driver being better than another? There's always going to be caveats and exceptions. Also the poll just asks which is better, it's not a definitive answer. I base my judgement as to who is the better sportsperson, which Hamilton just isn't.
Quote ( Richard Robin Paukson @ October 11th 2020,23:28:42 )
I thought he was referring to Postle.
Yes I was referring to him actually.
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ October 11th 2020,21:12:51 )
I think he was referring to Loeb.
Completely forgot about him, but yes! Rally drivers are better than F1 drivers in terms of pure driving skills, that is a fact. And surely the 9-times World Champion is best in motorsport.
A common sense assessment of the two. Unlike much of the other comments above. Don't forget Schumy's ability to build the team and car to a winning one as well as possibly stronger opposition (Senna, Hakkinen, etc). And then there is the Ham's bringing politics to the sport. I vote Schumacher.
1994- if Senna didn't crash and pass away, he wouldve won the title well before Adelaide. The Williams was much stronger, and Hill was never going to match Senna as a team mate. I believe Senna was about to start a run similar to what Lewis is having with Mercedes. Oh well. Can't reflect too much on what ifs.
Hard to compare them, honestly. Each have done good & bad things, had strong & weak opposition in different seasons, but after all of it they stand on top of the mountain and can not be compared. Just my opinion
Quote ( Erik Harken @ October 11th 2020,16:47:22 )
Quote ( Geir Pukk @ October 11th 2020,16:18:35 )
You could have at least tried to give this thread a proper title and first post....now it's all bad, just like the question you've asked.
what would be the fun in that?
Might not be "fun" but when you open a new topic, one of the things it tells you to do is about giving the thread a meaningful title, and not something unclear like you have. I'll edit it for you now :)
If you look at results against team mates (who after all are driving the same car and racing the same drivers) then I think Schumacher has the edge. His 2002 season eclipses anything Hamilton has done, although 2020 could be Hamilton's best so far and get close.
Quote ( Paul Bright @ October 12th 2020,12:59:13 )
If you look at results against team mates (who after all are driving the same car and racing the same drivers) then I think Schumacher has the edge. His 2002 season eclipses anything Hamilton has done, although 2020 could be Hamilton's best so far and get close.
Yeah, this doesn't hold water when you consider Schumacher's teammates were not allowed to compete against him and that many a time lessor drivers were signed up for just that, to play support, and by no means be any sort of competition.
All the respect to his teammates, but he didn't actually race against anybody championship material.
As for comparatively 'dominant' vehicles. We all know how dominant Brawn was, and well, Schumacher only won championships in Brawn developed/influenced cars.
What irks me though with any conversation about how good Schumacher was, is how the discussions always seem happy to gloss over/ignore his on track behaviour and that he was actually DQ'd from a season for cheating.
Quote ( Darryl Kucmerowski @ October 12th 2020,13:14:59 )
I'm fairly certain Schumacher never lost the drivers title to a teammate.
Cause his teammates were quite literally not allowed to beat him not to mention, they were all pretty poor standard by comparison.
Not a Hamilton fan, but yeah, when comes to 'dominant' car and 'teammate' arguments, I really have to wonder about folks memories regarding Schumacher's career considering the things being said.
Quote ( Darryl Kucmerowski @ October 12th 2020,13:14:59 )
I'm fairly certain Schumacher never lost the drivers title to a teammate.
It is incredibly difficult to be beaten by your teammate when they are ordered to pull over and allow them to pass you for the win on the last lap .... even though they are miles ahead.
Fact is: If it had been hamilton/Rosberg in ferrari instead of mercedes, rosberg would never had been allowed to win the title.
Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ October 12th 2020,13:28:26 )
Quote ( Darryl Kucmerowski @ October 12th 2020,13:14:59 )
I'm fairly certain Schumacher never lost the drivers title to a teammate.
It is incredibly difficult to be beaten by your teammate when they are ordered to pull over and allow them to pass you for the win on the last lap .... even though they are miles ahead.
Fact is: If it had been hamilton/Rosberg in ferrari instead of mercedes, rosberg would never had been allowed to win the title.
Were there any other drivers given preference in a team like this that you can remember? Not only were teammates given strict instructions to move over, who of Schumacher's teammates were even particularly good, of the Bottas/Rosberg/Alonso etc sort of standard?
Schumacher's teammates were the likes of Irvine, Barrichello etc etc. No slouches, sure, but definitely not particularly grand competition either, and yet he still needed team orders on several occassions to actually beat them.
Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ October 12th 2020,13:32:28 )
Were there any other drivers given preference in a team like this that you can remember? Not only were teammates given strict instructions to move over, who of Schumacher's teammates were even particularly good, of the Bottas/Rosberg/Alonso etc sort of standard?
Schumacher's teammates were the likes of Irvine, Barrichello etc etc. No slouches, sure, but definitely not particularly grand competition either, and yet he still needed team orders on several occassions to actually beat them.
I do not think that Bottas deserves to be listed alongside Alonso.
Schumacher had only two interesting teammates in this regard: Massa and Rosberg. He raced Massa early in Massa's and raced Rosberg after he (schumi) had come back from retirement and debatably had lost his edge.
Personally I think that all of both Hamilton's and Schumacher's teammates were at best good solid drivers that can win a championship when everything goes their way..... not the sort of drivers that can make something happen. This includes both Rosberg's and Massa's winning seasons.
It is incredibly difficult to compare drivers by comparing their teammates, when none of their teammates really stand out. Hamilton is the only of the two who ever really raced someone with merit, and that was his rookie season. That season was a shit show, you can dig a lot into the drama there .... but at the end of the season Hamilton, a rookie, tied Alonso in the same car.
Disclaimer: I am a Hamilton fan (always have been, in fact you can see that opinion in these forums prior to 2014 in case you want to go on claiming bandwagoning bs lol).
As usual, it's an impossible comparison. It's like comparing Ali to Fury or Carl Lewis to Usain Bolt. Different eras, different training/equipment etc. Does having the most wins mean they are the best drivers ever? Would Senna have beaten them both?
Quote ( Mark Witney @ October 12th 2020,14:45:25 )
As usual, it's an impossible comparison. It's like comparing Ali to Fury or Carl Lewis to Usain Bolt. Different eras, different training/equipment etc. Does having the most wins mean they are the best drivers ever? Would Senna have beaten them both?
Yep. Really all that can be said is that the two of them were/are great drivers with impressive careers.
If they weren't great drivers, they wouldn't have been as successful as they were.
Quote ( Mark Witney @ October 12th 2020,14:45:25 )
As usual, it's an impossible comparison. It's like comparing Ali to Fury or Carl Lewis to Usain Bolt. Different eras, different training/equipment etc. Does having the most wins mean they are the best drivers ever? Would Senna have beaten them both?
Yep. In terms of raw talent Senna beats them both. People look at stats and numbers too much which is especially difficult when you cross eras.
It's like people arguing over Messi and Ronaldo. Maradona is the greatest footballer to ever touch a ball in terms of ability at the sport. Different tragic path to Senna. Senna was taken too soon, Maradona got taken over by the mafia.
Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ October 12th 2020,13:32:28 )
Schumacher's teammates were the likes of Irvine, Barrichello etc etc. No slouches, sure, but definitely not particularly grand competition either, and yet he still needed team orders on several occassions to actually beat them.
Hamilton has had the likes of Heiki Kovaleinen and Bottas (who although supposedly very quick only just managed to beat an over-the-hill Massa because of the latters extra retirements and was on a par with Maldonado) as team mates. He also came off second best to Button, which is probably why he left to join Mercedes. If Schumacher hadn't come out of retirement and been mediocre in the twilight of his career and after years out of the sport his stats would look much better!
Hamilton has a too dominant car since 2014 so it is quite easy for him to accumulate wins. I think Schumacher had a dominant car but not that much like Hamilton and in his early years he competed senna, prost, mansell with a decent car but not the best. Hamilton has had always a top car.
Quote ( Daniel Bonilla @ October 12th 2020,15:16:51 )
Hamilton has a too dominant car since 2014 so it is quite easy for him to accumulate wins. I think Schumacher had a dominant car but not that much like Hamilton and in his early years he competed senna, prost, mansell with a decent car but not the best. Hamilton has had always a top car.
literally every delusional person says this. For how many years was Senna in the sport with Schumacher, 2-3 years? Prost retired in 93 as well so just a few years. Hamilton has had a 3 WDC as teammates. Michael has had how many? Hamilton hasn't had a "dominant" car since 2014. 2014-16 yes. 17-18 Ferrari was faster for a big chunk of the season, 19 Ferrari was competitive & did not win races due to mech or driver errors.
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