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Tema: [F1] 2019 Canadian Grand Prix |
122 atsakymų
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Quote ( Cameron Halsall @ June 10th 2019,23:35:07 ) He was in full control
But he himself said that he was not in control. He said it several times on the radio and then afterwards in interviews
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Absolute rubbish Cameron.
He re entered the track in an unsafe manner, almost caused an accident & you say he was well within his rights to do so.
I mean you can't be serious.
RL hypothetical situation.
We are driving down a duel lane highway.
I am about to overtake you in the right hand lane, so you think you have the right to cut across in front of me, almost running me into the guard rail ???
People have been killed for less in road rage incidents.
I really don't understand why you can't see the facts of what exactly happened. It is black and white.
Maybe a trip to the optometrist would be a good idea 😄
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Quote ( Cameron Halsall @ June 10th 2019,23:35:07 ) He was in full control and well within his right to block Hamilton provided he accelerated, which is exactly what he did.
If it was in full control, it would be a much more severe infringement demanding a more severe penalty. Because in that case it would be driving dangerously on purpose. You cannot slam the door like that on a car that is much faster than you and consider it a normal racing manoeuvre. Fortunately most people seem to agree that it was not in full control and therefore not on purpose.
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rubbing is racing....
racing is taken risks
if you no longer go for a gap....
if you get out of the way for a competitor once, you are his bitch forever.....
grow a pair...
(in this case particular..... nobody even touch nobody.... Hamilton saw the gap closing.... backed out of it..)
If you no longer can defend a position..... what's the point of racing?? 2021 FIA new regulations: Scalextric's ??? everybody follow everybody? single file?
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#95 parašyta 2019-Bir-11, 00:38:19 (paskutinis taisymas 2019-Bir-11, 00:50:13, taisė Josh Clark)
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Quote ( Jessica Trani @ June 9th 2019,23:55:55 ) Quote ( Dominik Karda @ June 9th 2019,23:01:33 )
I don't really want to make an opinion on the incident between Vettel and Hamilton, however it is obvious that we lost out on a potential great finish.
there wasn't an incident ... there was a Crying and poor pilot who asked and taken a penalty for a driver who propably will win the race who made a little mistake ....
"Crying"
I don't think Hamilton was crying.
"Poor pilot"
5 world titles, almost as many wins in not nearly as many races as Michael Schumacher, many f1 and ex-f1 drivers rate him as one of the greatest. I don't think he's a poor pilot.
"...asked for a penalty"
When? Literally the sentence that Hamilton said over the radio regarding the incident was "that was dangerous"
I've no idea where you get your idea that Hamilton whined and cried to his race engineer, other than you just want to paint Hamilton in a negative light because you hate him? Or am I misinterpreting all of your very direct harsh criticisms...
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Well said Josh.
She has tunnel vision Mate.
Biased as all hell.
Refuses to face facts, & dribbles BS about Lewis.
Can't see the forest for the trees 😄
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To be honest, of course those radio messages like "that was dangerous" are a call to the race director. The thing is ALL drivers do that nowadays, so it's silly to single one driver out. One name that comes to my mind immediately when I think of such radio messages is Mr Popular himself... Kimi Räikkönen.
It's a bit of football player mentality, sadly. Must be something to do with earning embarrassing amounts of money.
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Quote ( Jonathan Beagles @ June 10th 2019,21:55:56 ) I'm an experienced go-karter
Me too, nice to meet you bro! =D
So, from what I can understand we agree that Vettel hasn't done anything wrong when it was in the grass... In the best scenario it would have rejoined the track at the exact same speed and in the same exact position. It's from the moment he rejoined the track and after where we disagree. You said floored but that's incorrect cause if he would have accelerate to the max he would have spinned and I think that as a driver you know it very well. I think that you are wrong too considering where the sliding started... Have you consider that maybe the car started sliding when he was still in the grass so he have to accelerate a little trying to modulate the drift? You know the basic of drifting right? If you want to avoid spinning you have to modulate the gas pedal, neither too much nor too low. At the same time he rejoined the circuit, so there is a change in the surface. This means too a change of grip and a change of the car's balance... but how much? Can you forecast exactly how much and the exact moment do you have to accelerate to mantain the slide without going wide? No, I don't think that a human can be omniscient, usually there is always a little margin of error and that is what caused the major oversteer that caused the car to go wide. So at the end I think that it wasn't intentional and Sebastian wasn't greedy too... It was only trying to control the car.
So now, considering that you are saying that the penalty should be applied only beacuse at the end he closed Hamilton without considering the context by that logic why Perez wasn't penalized when he overtook Grosjean? Without watching the context, by the rules you have to leave the space when you have more than a half of a car at the side of you. Without considering the context, why Hamilton wasn't penalized when he cutted the chicane gaining an advantage at Monaco? Maybe because Max touched him, so he lost the control and he went wide, but now we are considering the context, so it means that rules aren't omniscient but they leave space to a little bit of interpretation. Why Vettel received 5s penalty in France 2018 and Raikkonen 10s at Silverstone if it was the same accident? If you watch only the rules shouldn't be the same penalty for both?
If we watch the context Sebastian didn't do that intentionally, all what have done was trying to control the car without crashing and by common sense, if you see the car in front of you go out in a chicane, you should have slowed down a little and not taking the turn at full speed like Hamilton has done, cause in the case Vettel spinned Hamilton would have surely crashed into him. Moreover if Hamilton suddenly slowed down he could have seen where Sebastian was going and by that he could have gone to the left and overtook him without problems. With this context, shouldn't it be a racing incident?
But maybe I am the only one who thinks in that way so I'm only a fool XD.
P.S.
Quote ( Andrew Wilden @ June 10th 2019,23:46:31 ) We are driving down a duel lane highway.
Please no more example of public road... They are bad example: a circuit is a place where you try to go over your limits so making a mistake is accetable, in a public road you aren't allowed to push your car to the limit and by consequence those mistakes aren't allowed.
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#99 parašyta 2019-Bir-11, 12:01:37 (paskutinis taisymas 2019-Bir-11, 12:02:47, taisė Paul Bright)
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Haven't both Hamilton and Verstappen had penalties for very similar infringements over the last year or so? As I recall there was no big outcry then, probably because they didn't have a 'supersulk' at the event. Drivers have been demanding consistency from Stewards and yet when they get it the Incredible Sulk comes out to play :)
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I'm a Ferrari fan but I think he was in the wrong unfortunately. Whether he was in control or not doesn't matter because he made a mistake and completely blocked off Hamilton. The rules clearly say you have to rejoin in a safe manner right? It doesn't matter if he didn't have control because that's not good enough. Rejoining in an unsafe manner whether your in control or not is still rejoining in an unsafe manner.
BUT
5 seconds are way too much. With all the technicalities how could they impose a simple 5 second penalty? Couldn't they have made it 1/2 seconds seeing how Hamilton wasn't that far away from him?
Either way, instead of being angry at the result, we should be focused on the rules that have been implemented, not vettel or the FIA. They simply did what is written in the rules they couldn't let him off just because it was a good race.
Let's focus on the rules not this one incident. Like a lot of you have already mentioned, there are so many incidents like this that have already occurred but no one cared about it. Let's talk about it every time this happens not just when it makes the race anti-climactic.
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Quote ( Paul Bright @ June 11th 2019,12:01:37 ) Haven't both Hamilton and Verstappen had penalties for very similar infringements over the last year or so? As I recall there was no big outcry then, probably because they didn't have a 'supersulk' at the event. Drivers have been demanding consistency from Stewards and yet when they get it the Incredible Sulk comes out to play :)
Similar but not the same... Sorry I usually work on Sunday so I cannot see all the GPs so I don't remember the Hamilton's case.
Referring to Verstappen: the difference was that he was in full control of his car, he could have braked or he could have rejoined the track in a different place, however he decided to rejoin here on the curb trying to avoid to give back the position to Raikkonen, who was exactly behind him and not at 2 seconds like Hamilton in this case.
If you consider this context the 2 case aren't the same.
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Stefano.....Congrats 😊
Thumbs up from me.
Finally an Italian passionate Ferrari fan that both sees and speaks the truth about the incident.
I disagree with your 1 or 2 second idea. I think 5 seconds or as some others have suggested, to allow Lewis past, was a fair call.
The bias towards both Vettel &/or Ferrari over this incident has astounded me. You simply can't do what Vettel did and expect to get away with it. No matter who you are, who you drive for, or what position you are in. First, mid pack or last.
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If Seb had any sportsmanship in him and not being a spoilt brat ,he would have let Lewis past then fought for the Win..
Otherwise in the future you will have some drivers missing a corner having a bit of a slide and expecting to get away with it .
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Vettel made (yet) another mistake and received a 5 second penalty for it. I wont contest that.
His mistake was on lap 48 of 70. Penalty received on lap 58 so he had 12 laps (could have preempted it and had 22 laps) to do something about it and pull the gap needed to win but didn't have the pace to do this.
Once Hamilton knew this, he no longer tried to pressure and pass Vettel which effectively finished the race.
This is my problem! If Vettel deserved a penalty then make it retrospective or at the next race and keep it interesting.
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Quote ( William Durant @ June 11th 2019,14:14:48 ) If Vettel deserved a penalty then make it retrospective
Sorry I am not sure how they could make a penalty retrospective. What are you suggesting that they should do?
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Discussing the fact -->i t was well penalised imo. Rules are Rules.
Discussing the rules nicely --> we've to balance between Safety Rules and Boredom of the Sport. It is getting ridiculous obscene to make a risky overtaking manouver, or even a blocking.
Discussing it hard --> F1 turn out to be for sissies these day "uuuh...he did an ugly manover, I could hurt my nails". Com'on...what a lame show we're getting. Bah...
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In conclusion...
VETTEL JUST STOP MAKING MISTAKES!!!!
Hamilton learned that in 2016...you should do the same after what happened last year ;)
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Quote ( Andrew Wilden @ June 11th 2019,12:49:44 ) Stefano.....Congrats 😊
Thumbs up from me.
Finally an Italian passionate Ferrari fan that both sees and speaks the truth about the incident.
Thanks dude :) Yeah most Ferrari fans feel this crazy entitlement that Ferrari deserves to win every race. Ferrari is like Real Madrid. A great history that unfortunately encourages this arrogance that really annoys me. Stop threatening to leave F1, just focus on winning damnit.
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Yeah I'm sorry that I'm Italian and only for that reason I'm a "hardcore Ferrari fan" who wants Ferrari to always win. In my previous post I only and always have insulted Hamilton and never posted a valuable and objective opinion about the facts. I'm only a fool who wants Vettel wins even if Vettel isn't my favourite driver.
It's sad, for me, and for many other drivers, that another one of us, only because he lost a little the rear, he must receive a penalty... It's very normal to slide with a car that has a power to weight ratio of over 1000, but it seems that everyone thinks that if you slide you absolutely deserve the penalty. Rules are rules, but the ones who takes decisions are the stewards (article 38.2 "It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide if any driver involved in an incident should be penalised.
Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for
an Incident no penalty will be imposed.") and that's because usually you consider the context that in this case was a car without control and the driver was trying to do his best to not crash, he didn't do it intentionally and there was no contact between the 2 cars... Is it really to blame? For me no, but as I see I problably am born in the wrong era, because for every little mistake you need a penalty and you have to be a robot for 300km.
Ok, now I stop, I'm sorry, I'm only a stupid Ferrari biased fan and only because I'm Italian obviously, in the next life I will try to born in another country, maybe Japan if I can choose :).
For me it's a very sad thing, but probably I'm the only one that feels in that way.
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Quote ( Simone Bertolotto @ June 11th 2019,10:48:24 ) It's from the moment he rejoined the track and after where we disagree. You said floored but that's incorrect cause if he would have accelerate to the max he would have spinned and I think that as a driver you know it very well. I think that you are wrong too considering where the sliding started... Have you consider that maybe the car started sliding when he was still in the grass so he have to accelerate a little trying to modulate the drift? You know the basic of drifting right? If you want to avoid spinning you have to modulate the gas pedal, neither too much nor too low. At the same time he rejoined the circuit, so there is a change in the surface. This means too a change of grip and a change of the car's balance... but how much?
Quote ( Simone Bertolotto @ June 11th 2019,19:28:17 ) It's sad, for me, and for many other drivers, that another one of us, only because he lost a little the rear, he must receive a penalty... It's very normal to slide with a car that has a power to weight ratio of over 1000, but it seems that everyone thinks that if you slide you absolutely deserve the penalty.
By the way, I also disapprove of this penalty. Like a lot of others, if any sort of penalty had to be issued, I would've been 100% in favour of the incident being deemed "gaining and maintaining an advantage while off the track", to which the request is Vettel be allowed to let the trailing car back past. Then we would've had a vengeful Vettel chasing after Hamilton for 20+ laps, which would've been great to watch.
However, I 99% believe that Vettel could've in fact rejoined safely without receiving a penalty. If you watch the footage enough times:
https://youtu.be/zB1s8eGygFI?t=93 (time stamped)
Firstly, Vettel actually regains control while off the track. You can see his wheel straighten up, and he then maintains throttle to keep the car even and stable on the way back on to the track. Fair enough, but it can probably be argued that had he not maintained the throttle and stopped using it altogether, he could've taken a straighter line through the corner, had a bit less speed when rejoining the track, and maybe not have had to take up the entire road trying to maintain stability after rejoining. But if that really wasn't possible...
You can also see that Vettel's second loss of control was his snap of oversteer as the rear wheels spun after landing off of the kerb. It can certainly and probably heavily be argued that had Vettel not had an throttle input at all after leaving the kerb, the rear wheels would not have spun up in the miniscule amount of time they were in the air, and the car would've landed much more stable than what it did, avoiding a large enough kick of oversteer to have to carry the car to the opposite side of the track. But if even that really wasn't a possibility...
Finally, you can see that Vettel's oversteer after rejoining the track was actually corrected around half way across the track, and he was definitely in full control and fully stable around a car's width, or maybe a bit less, from the white line on the right hand side. Had he had zero throttle input and steered slightly to the left, he would've maintained the control he had, been much further than a car's width from the wall, and could then have accelerated in a straight line safely. Instead, from the point where he finally becomes stable, he accelerates in a straight line towards the white line on the right hand side of the track. Now, I honestly don' think that can be argued, it's really quite clear. If Vettel didn't continue to accelerate after regaining stability before the white line, he wouldn't have been in Hamilton's way when Hamilton attempted to pass.
Obviously no racing driver would willingly let off the throttle in that situation and allow the car behind to pass freely. But Vettel 99% could've taken a safer route back to the track and not blocked Hamilton. Instead he chose to risk keeping the throttle on in all above scenarios, and ended up blocking Hamilton. Which obviously under the current rules and regulations, was deemed illegal and he was therefore punished.
I get that a lot of people think this is near-impossible split-second decision making, but it really isn't for a racing driver. The entire incident lasted just 4 seconds, but drivers are constantly making millisecond decisions. I do honestly think that anyone who truly believes that Vettel had no chance of rejoining the track in a safer way is kidding themselves.
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You feel really passionately about this I see Josh.
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#112 parašyta 2019-Bir-11, 21:26:53 (paskutinis taisymas 2019-Bir-11, 21:27:38, taisė Josh Clark)
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I'll be sending screenshots along with my CV to the FIA in the event a steward's position becomes available ;)
Jokes and wall of text aside, I love racing. Where most non-racing fans believe it's just driving in circles, I love the whole spectrum of it. From things like a small bit of intended oversteer to help straighten a touring car up after a hairpin and get a great exit, to cut-throat dive bombs into Eau Rouge, to watching every inch of accuracy in a Monaco qualifying lap. If there was live motorspot on 24/7, my electricity and internet bills would outweigh my wages.
Tbh I'm not that fussed over Canada. But it's the most exciting thing that's happened in F1 in over a year so it's nice to be able to talk about motorsport while we can.
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ June 11th 2019,21:26:53 ) But it's the most exciting thing that's happened in F1 in over a year so it's nice to be able to talk about motorsport while we can.
But wouldn't it be nice to talk about close competitive races with 3 or 4 cars battling for the podium rather than the stewards rulings....
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And ,, Would it not be nice to see a fight with fair F1 rules allowing drivers to race !
The rules are taking US, fans away from competitive racing !
WHO EVER IS CORRECT ! We are arguing / debating ,, the rules at the end of the day ..
I bet this debate doe's not appear after the BTCC race at croft on Sunday ! THAT is fair racing ??
Is it not ?
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Quote ( Simone Bertolotto @ June 11th 2019,19:28:17 ) Ok, now I stop, I'm sorry, I'm only a stupid Ferrari biased fan and only because I'm Italian obviously, in the next life I will try to born in another country, maybe Japan if I can choose :).
For me it's a very sad thing, but probably I'm the only one that feels in that way.
I agree with Simone. You are categorising people. 1 or 2 people from Italy come here and say they will never watch F1 again etc and you say it' the Italian people. You know, for someone that says other peope are immature and childish you can be real jackasses too.
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Quote ( Josh Clark @ June 11th 2019,21:26:53 ) Jokes and wall of text aside, I love racing. Where most non-racing fans believe it's just driving in circles, I love the whole spectrum of it. From things like a small bit of intended oversteer to help straighten a touring car up after a hairpin and get a great exit, to cut-throat dive bombs into Eau Rouge, to watching every inch of accuracy in a Monaco qualifying lap. If there was live motorspot on 24/7, my electricity and internet bills would outweigh my wages.
I completely agree with you on this! =D
Regarding your first post:
That is an interesting post, thank you, I really appreciate it cause I think that is the first reply in a complete manner to my points.
Quote ( Josh Clark @ June 11th 2019,20:53:39 ) which the request is Vettel be allowed to let the trailing car back past
Ahahah I'm imaging something like an angry Vettel version Mexico 2016:joy:. It would be interesting to watch, in particular to discover if between 2 cars with a similar pace the one with more straight speed could have overtaken the other.
Let's be serious now, unfortunately your link to the video is banned in my country so I cannot see it :( ... For my analysis I've used this video https://youtu.be/gqhX-ZzPhzo ... If you can only telling me if there are more footage in your video that can be more interesting than mine (I have to admit that in some parts you cannot listen the engine and in some point you cannot be satisfied with the camera... It would be great to have some video without speaker and with a little bit of telemetry, so you can be really sure about it) so at least we can be on the same exactly frequency
So, my opinions: when Vettel was in the grass. By the onboard I admit it seems that he was in control of the car before rejoining the track because of the straight wheel, but I have watched too the successive footage at the side of the track and you can see that the rear is more... Crooked? Sorry I don't know the correct English word... I'm not so good with languages :sweat_smile:.
So I deduced that he straightened up the wheel not because he had the control of the car but because he was starting to lose the rear... And by taking a closer look... How it's possible that the car is turning a little before he rejoins the track even if he straightened up the wheel? He was sliding and in that moment probably he used a little bit of gas pedal to stabilize the sliding too.
So I think that at the moment he rejoined the track wasn't in full control of the car... He didn't choose that speed or that point to rejoin the track, but it was busied to control the slide.
I think that the major oversteer (the first after he rejoined the track) was unavoidable because it's a point in downhill here so you have a wrong balance from the start: too much weight on the front while the rear is too light, so when you go over the curb first the car loses the front and go into understeer, but then suddenly the weight of the car returns on the front tyres that regain grip and they make the rear slide, even if you don't use the throttle! Vettel moreover was already sliding a bit from what I've seen so I think that isn't wrong to use a little of throttle here because it can help you to mantain a little control of the slide.
Ok, then the final question... When Sebastian acquired the complete control of the car... I think approximately that I agree with you, it is when he had a half of car of width from the white line. The main problem in that moment is that he had almost a width of the tyre on the racing line! (You can see it from the rubber's signs) And at this moment Vettel didn't know where Hamilton was and it was comprehensible: you are completely focus on the car so you don't look in the mirror, moreover Hamilton wasn't suddenly behind, there were 2s of gap before the mistake and when you control your car you don't really realize how much time has gone.
So, if you don't know where the car behind is, if you have already a tyre on the racing line and you are going a lot more slower, I wouldn't make a sudden movement to the left (cause maybe the car behind have moved to the left to overtake you...), instead while maintaning my line trusting the person behind to act accordingly to that because he can see where I am going, I will try to regain as much speed as possible in the minor time and in the meanwhile I watch where Hamilton is. And that's exactly what Vettel have done and when he watched the mirrow saw that Hamilton was on the right, however he had already slowed down so I think that since then was superfluous to go left.
In reality I don't know if in F1 is valid this little unsaid rule, in kart yes. So if I'm wrong probably Vettel had a little more blame.
In retrospect yeah you can always do better and he could have stayed to the left a bit more and that would have allowed the necessary space for Hamilton to stay at the right of him, but to me it seems that in that moment Sebastian had a good reaction without any malice.
Quote ( Josh Clark @ June 11th 2019,20:53:39 )
I get that a lot of people think this is near-impossible split-second decision making, but it really isn't for a racing driver. The entire incident lasted just 4 seconds, but drivers are constantly making millisecond decisions. I do honestly think that anyone who truly believes that Vettel had no chance of rejoining the track in a safer way is kidding themselves.
Theoretically by this (stupid) video they have a time reaction of 0,250s approximately
https://youtu.be/6fgGJ-M6X2s
But I would add that what the driver does in a moment of crisis (ok it's not the right world... Waaa it doesn't come into my mind... Something similar anyway) is an instictive reaction and not a ponder action, a little bit like a reflex arc (the patellar reflex exam for example) so yeah, they are still human and the choice they take in that fraction of seconds can be wrong but yeah everyone makes mistakes so it's normal.
In conclusion I think that the main point are:
-Vettel when he was in the grass before rejoined the track was in full control of the car? From your point of view yes, and if it's true you are right, he could have rejoined the track more on the left. However in my opinion he was still sliding so he had done the best he could so if it's true I'm the one who is right. It's difficult to judge without a minor of telemetry.
-Secondly, Was it correct that if you don't know where the car behind is to go suddenly left or is it better to mantain your line and in the meanwhile you watch where the car behind is? Personally I agree with the second choice, but maybe I'm wrong... The good thing to discuss those things with other person is that yourself can learn something too.
By solving those question you can choose if Vettel have made this intentionally or not, and if his behaviour was dangerous or suitable in that moment... In my opinion it can change the judgment towards him.
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Quote ( Matija Gjurčević @ June 12th 2019,00:36:29 ) I agree with Simone. You are categorising people. 1 or 2 people from Italy come here and say they will never watch F1 again etc and you say it' the Italian people. You know, for someone that says other peope are immature and childish you can be real jackasses too.
Thank you, but me too maybe I have exaggerated a bit too much, I'm sorry for that.
But people who makes judgement only by one of your characteristic makes me a little angry sometimes.
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Quote ( Simone Bertolotto @ June 12th 2019,02:12:34 ) But people who makes judgement only by one of your characteristic makes me a little angry sometimes.
You get angry so easily, it must be because you are Italian.
(that was a joke, in case it wasn't clear :p)
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#119 parašyta 2019-Bir-12, 03:53:19 (paskutinis taisymas 2019-Bir-12, 03:54:00, taisė Lyee Chong)
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You shall make funnier joke like the FIA, then only you need not emphasis your joke is a joke every time :)
(another joke if it is not clear :P)
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Penalty or not, the problem is not the rules, not the stewards, not the race control but the drivers and teams. They have been complaining about everything for the past 10 years over the radio's. Every little detail in the race they have used to turn it into their benefits, with the consequences that we are now in the middle of given penalties for every small thing in the race.
Vettel was in Monaco luckily with Verstappen given an unsafe release penalty, something he directly complaints about on the radio. Now he got it after Hamilton directly reported that it was a dangerous drive. We are talking about the best drivers, the ones with the biggest balls, but they are acting like little pussies in the cockpit. Hamilton can play the mister nice guy afterwards, with his always political correct answers, but he knew very well why he directly reported it on the radio. Just to get a shot on a penalty for Vettel. It was vettel in Mexico 2016, who was yelling on the radio that Verstappen should let him go after a similar situation. loosing control in a turn, taken a route through the grass and stay before Vettel. So if it is Verstappen, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Vettel or any other driven.. they just are trying to scrrew other drivers to get a possible benefit. Not the character you would expect from a worldclass racing driver.
How to chance it? Just stop the usage of radios during the races. No communication between driver and team, not about tactics, not about settings, not about complaints. Let them race, bang wheels in corners, and when it get's to hard, the marshals can use the black flag or give a drive through penalty. Let the driver become the boss of his own strategy and car management and let him fight for a spot they way he things he is allowed to do so.
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