Quote ( Alain Routhier @ February 15th 2020,03:16:05 )
If this is a management game I can tell you, I would never hire a contractor who won't tell me how much their work cost.
Well.. the parts suppliers are telling you how much it will cost to fit your car with the next level part.
So there :)
They are not telling the price of level 9 part, but thenagain you are not allowed to buy it directly after level 1. So buy letting you know how much it costs to fit the allowed next level part actually is within your requirements.
Does it really matter how much one apple or two apples cost when there are more important variables to consider will that apple last you 2, 3 or 4 days. Then you also have to consider how long than peach and pear will last you.
Just start with a guestimation and refining the figures as you go along. For instance start with 15% increase which is not correct but at low levels you wont notice a big difference to your finances.
It's more important to log all data especially how much part wear a track uses with 0ct so that next time you race there you'll have a better understanding of how the game works.
Alternatively just ask some of the experienced managers that have responded here and they will certainly help you in the right direction as numbers staying are more important than leaving.
Try searching google for gpro tools theres plenty there but even if you have everything at your disposal that doesn't mean you'll even be able to succeed in pro as there are many managers out there that cannot make that big step from amateur. Being mentored is better than having a load of tools you have no idea how to use
Quote ( Alain Routhier @ February 15th 2020,03:16:05 )
BTW when the game started I am sure everyone had a knife today oldtimers appear to have an ak47 and the new players are given a knife.
Actually not. While it may be true that old players started with a knife and they now got an AK-47, new players today don't start with a knife but with a MP5 at least. Trust me. But still you also need a good aim.
Alessandro. "Actually not..." My suggestion is that when the game was zero year old all new players joining were at same level. Today we have players with years of experience and newbie joining have no level playing field since a player in Rookie might also have been in amateur, pro etc in previous seasons. No?
David. My intention with this question is because I want to calculate a possible relationship between part level vs cost vs wear vs performance. I am sure there is a curve in there somewhere... ;-) Without the cost for parts at all levels I am in the dark.
I was commenting that the point of my (friendly) question is in part because if I knew the prices of say brake and gearbox level 4 and had worked-out what that level provides my driver for each part, I could decide to leave my brake at level 2 and upgrade GB to level 4 therefore allowing me to manage my budget in a better way than walking blindly around.
Quote ( Alain Routhier @ February 15th 2020,20:20:44 )
My intention with this question is because I want to calculate a possible relationship between part level vs cost vs wear vs performance. I am sure there is a curve in there somewhere... ;-) Without the cost for parts at all levels I am in the dark.
I just wonder how you propose to calculate anything if you're unable to calculate the costs of different level parts from the information given to you
The costs of different level parts is (probably) one of the easiest ones in gpro.
Quote ( Alain Routhier @ February 15th 2020,02:55:05 )
I worked for decades as an IT/telecom project manager.
Wouldn't an IT project manager be expected to be able to do very basic maths, such as calculate ratios of values ? At least here in Finland 10 years old children learn to do that in school, so I'd imagine a project manager should be able too.
So... IF you indeed are trying to calculate some "curve", you are in fact given what you need to get the costs of levels
Ha! The question just became academical given that with a little help from a friend. I found that the information is actually all available on the web. And there are apparently a lot of apps available to assist with Gpro, the need to create my own db appears to have dropped tremendously.
This makes me think even MORE that the information should be in Gpro WiKi/manual so newbies like me would not believe the task to be so daunting, also it is beyond me as to why these apps would not be within the game and controlled by the game admins.
"Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for a lifetime."
That would be the point wouldn't it? Is Gpro preventing new players to learn while the info is available outside the game?
Regurgitating internet memes appears to be your claim to fame. No wonder you boost 12,000 posts! You appears not to even understand the original question of my post and simply run on your interpretation, yawn.
Quote ( Alain Routhier @ February 16th 2020,07:19:01 )
That would be the point wouldn't it? Is Gpro preventing new players to learn while the info is available outside the game? You appears not to even understand the original question of my post and simply run on your interpretation, yawn.
It seems more like you're not willing to read any of the posts, but instead just run with your own
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ February 14th 2020,23:22:12 )
Maybe it's a way to encourage managers to find correlations between things (?) To get them used to thinking for themselves and coming up with ideas and testing them in practise, to find good ways to be competitive. By looking into the more simple things can come more complex and useful ways to approach different aspects of gpro.
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ February 15th 2020,21:14:35 )
IF you indeed are trying to calculate some "curve", you are in fact given what you need to get the costs of alllevels
So... GPRO is not preventing new players to learn, in fact it's trying to encourage them to learn.
Quote ( Alain Routhier @ February 16th 2020,07:19:01 )
Regurgitating internet memes appears to be your claim to fame.
Since you're going personal, this might be a bit blunt but that's just silly.
1) How many of my posts have you seen containing what you call "internet meme"
2) Whoa, what a learned man...
Have you ever heard that some things do pre-date the internet... (some by hundreds of years)
and as it happens, the ones that stand the test of time are quite often wise words.
Theres too many profile pics of people wearing glasses / sunglasses in this thread.
Frankly don't understand why the argument.... we see this all the time people, new user getting mad because they don't have access to everything immediately at their fingertips and going about asking for it the wrong way. Nothing new folks.
The fact that the original issue (car part costs) is stupid to begin with (they should be in the Wiki)..... followed by a mod overreaching and over modding (hey, another "whats new") ..... followed by the needless squabble back and forth..... and then no mod reaction to an item thats actually in the rules ("double" posting) ......... just makes this whole thread childish. (so yes, I am on topic, I'm posting childish squabble which is exactly what this whole thread is).
pointless thread over modding lots of people wearing glasses jay childish argument mods failing to enforce actual rules
It's the fruitcake of threads people, this one has it all! Wait we need........... tunage!
well i guess by now the threadstarter got his info (because there is always someone that gives you the info asked for by pm) and indeed this thread is become childish, so lets forget about this topic and move on .... like always
Quote ( Patrick Paarhuis @ February 16th 2020,14:05:52 )
well i guess by now the threadstarter got his info (because there is always someone that gives you the info asked for by pm) and indeed this thread is become childish, so lets forget about this topic and move on .... like always
Although you're right, GPRO is a management game and requires at least some planning ahead. Costs certainly being one of them. It just doesn't make sense to hide part level costs instead of make them publically available on the Wiki, like the race income (bit off) or training costs (before recent update..)
Quote ( Alain Routhier @ February 16th 2020,17:13:19 )
Well yes, That conversation went sideways rather quickly! 'some' participant have 'Strong' opinion indeed.
Yes indeed, probably because "some" participants don't read the forum replies but instead keep ranting their own position on and on and go to personal comments if someone doesn't agree fully...
You know that people are allowed to have their own opinions, they don't have to agree with you ?
IF you think it went sideways, maybe best to also consider your part in it
@Mikko Heikkinen (P13) just stop pointing fingers, it doesn't help and probably will rather have a negative effect as a positive one
@Jay yes it could but it is neccessary? as said he probably has the list by now and if he would he could have calculated it himself. partially i agree that this Info should be availble, but if ppl are clever enough they could find it out themselves
all have said what they wanted, but as said aswell we going in circle here and it doesn't help so just let it rest .....
Quote ( Alain Routhier @ February 15th 2020,20:16:43 )
My suggestion is that when the game was zero year old all new players joining were at same level. Today we have players with years of experience and newbie joining have no level playing field since a player in Rookie might also have been in amateur, pro etc in previous seasons. No?
This was true only in the very first seasons. After a few seasons, all new managers had the same problem but without having any tool. So you are better placed today.
I just wish people would talk facts and not 'feelings' induced opinions.
Actual game theory, as discussed, points to the changes being required, that the decisions made in original Gpro design are flawed and that while the gaming world has acknowledged these changes as not only are games now designed with these lessons in game theory applied, many older games actually received updates to take into account the lessons learnt in game theory over the past decade or more since Gpro came out.
And this is what I find so frustrating. Yes, it may have 'worked' in the past, but then, in the past, most game developers the world over were making the same/similiar fundemental flaws in their design approach, you didn't have to worry about others being better at attracting players than you, as they were making the same mistakes as you. Situations change. The competition changes. The world gets smarter, the world adapts to new knowledge.
The game market has changed as these lessons in game theory have been applied and are continuously built upon.
Why is Gpro being so stubborn? Why is it always 'feelings, feelings, feelings' and no actual discussion of the facts, discussion of game theory, which has become so fundementally important that it is a fully fledged degree now, yet, not a single 'naysayer' seems even remotely interested to talk about it, instead they happily twist comments into things they never were, and in many cases, make them about things that were never said (let alone implied) in the first place.
Read/listen to actually understand, not to simply respond. Its pretty clear the responses haven't been trying to understand, just jumping to conclusions with all the focus on pretty ego's. Its about 'I survived as a new player' and other hogwash. That doesn't mean Gpro doesn't have to catchup with the times, if anything, it just means so do you.
It's pretty obvious that GPRO is very much a status rather than a game at the moment, and that really needs to change. So what if 'I survived'. How does that add any value to the discussion about internationally acknowledged game design theory and how many of the lessons learnt in the past decade or so, go completely ignored by Gpro at its own detriment for no other reason than a bunch of egos?
Sorting out the new player experience and intuitive nature (or lack thereof) to the approach in how the game communicates has nothing to do with veteran player experience (it won't change at all other than having a more successful game) and but everything that will make it fun new experience to ensure captivates new players go forward.
If you read the comments about what needs to change with the perspective of looking to understand, you'll see there is no need to defend any of the concerns and attacks that keep being thrown around about people being lazy, wanting instant results and the rest of the utter hogwash nonsense being thrown around.
Car part prices will not do but anything improve the introductory experience. Brief descriptions of what trainings, parts etc do, will not do anything but improve the introductory experience.
We are not talking about giving away any of the genuine game engine information that managers work hard on accumulated and perfecting. None of that will change. None of the true advantages of being a veteran would be touched or eroded in any shape or form.
What simply talking about is that game theory learnt long ago, that a game has to be careful in its design to ensure that it doesn't punish people for being new, i.e. fundemental basics in order to play the game should not be hidden, i.e. don't hide what training does. don't hide what parts do or cost.
We're not talking giving any figures of any kind "knowledge". We're simply saying don't force new players to literally WASTE in game currency in a management game in order to learn how the basics of the game engine/UI works. That approach would've been fine 10+ years ago, where designers and gamers didn't know any better, but it isn't fine anymore, in a world where the competition, the gaming world have learnt these lessons, its just nonsensical to keep pushing the old, flawed approach.
I am tempting to answer to the long (to long IMO) but i won't because this is YOUR (and some others) opinion.
all i can say is i see what both parties want: Pro: that info is available and not a real gamechanger, so why not give it out in the open Contra: you should be able to figuure it out yourself, and nowadays there are enough "tools" that you don't have to think about it anymore.
Both are legit in their arguments, again GPROhas its rules, yes they might be old and some even overdue, but we all learned or have to learn to coop with it and for all the same rules apply, so nobody has a real advantage over someone else, if a rookie can get his hands on a tool you won't see him asking questions here on Forum (maybe only when he finds a Bug or something is not really clear)
So again i understand both sides but it is really useless to go in circles and repeating the same thing over and over again
Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ February 17th 2020,07:48:22 )
What simply talking about is that game theory learnt long ago, that a game has to be careful in its design to ensure that it doesn't punish people for being new, i.e. fundemental basics in order to play the game should not be hidden, i.e. don't hide what training does. don't hide what parts do or cost.
Sure, but in view of the games complexities,, I think defining "what training does" and "what parts costs" as fundamental basics of the game is out, I mean the rules/wiki/newbie guide are sizeable docs full of fundamental basics,,, the size of such lists of basics to read is also a punishment for new players?? :P ... surely such useful data is very easily collected and reviewed very early in a new players career??
I see things to learn, stepping stones, mining for gold and a deeper understanding,, punishing new players? na
Quote ( MG van Rensburg @ February 17th 2020,07:48:22 )
We're not talking giving any figures of any kind "knowledge". We're simply saying don't force new players to literally WASTE in game currency in a management game in order to learn how the basics of the game engine/UI works. That approach would've been fine 10+ years ago, where designers and gamers didn't know any better, but it isn't fine anymore, in a world where the competition, the gaming world have learnt these lessons, its just nonsensical to keep pushing the old, flawed approach.
I really don't agree! for the examples of information you discuss, you make it sound like new players will be bankrupt collecting this knowledge... A determined new player can have all of that info/data for no in game cost if he uses the games resources (as this thread proves) or if he wants to go full foby, it will cost very little in game money/time. Not out dated/nonsensical, but a fairly niche market.
Quote ( Patrick Paarhuis @ February 17th 2020,12:01:34 )
So again i understand both sides but it is really useless to go in circles and repeating the same thing over and over again
Cheers for the additional modding, Pat. not sure why you are shutting down discussions mate? I think the required modding had been executed, it's a tough job, not easy to get it right all the time, but someone has to do it. Big thanks to those putting THEIR time to it (thumbs up)
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