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Practice & Qualy Car Wear
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Pengarang Topik: Practice & Qualy Car Wear 72 balasan
Andi Mankolli
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Kiriman lama #31 dikirim Dis 8 2012, 04:35:09 Sebut 
Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ December 7th 2012,19:33:40 )

How do you propose to work out a perfect set up if it changes every lap? :)

Well you obviously would need to calculate how much it changes by each lap. :)
You wouldn't get to know that before hand. :)
João Monteiro2
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Kiriman lama #32 dikirim Dis 8 2012, 04:50:54 Sebut 
Quote ( Ivan Salfa @ December 7th 2012,16:38:32 )


Practice Sessions & Qualy could have a small effect on the car in terms of wear.
For Qualy, this wear could further depend on the Q risks used.

Gives a small extra managment touch to P & Q events.


Ivan,
please send to my email the tool to calculate setup without making any practice lap that you're using.
thank you

p.s- or make it public to all of us
John Akko
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Kiriman lama #33 dikirim Dis 8 2012, 07:03:49 Sebut 
Wouldn't having numbers for a single lap in known conditions and then being able to relate risk to CT just make it easier for everyone to get a calculation for wear in those conditions ??

At least thats the way I see it
Jimmy De Roy
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Kiriman lama #34 dikirim Dis 8 2012, 09:15:49 Sebut 
Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ December 7th 2012,19:33:40 )

Implementing your suggestion would be a massive advantage for those that can already do that without practice laps over new players who will find it much harder to work out the same thing.


True

Quote ( Rusty Rafferty @ December 7th 2012,22:14:46 )

there are teams that have calculators that give a perfect setup with the click of a button, so this idea just puts new players and teams without calculators at a disadvantage.


Also true.

Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ December 7th 2012,19:33:40 )

How do you propose to work out a perfect set up if it changes every lap? :)


Wear changes every lap now too so???


Quote ( John Akko @ December 8th 2012,07:03:49 )

Wouldn't having numbers for a single lap in known conditions and then being able to relate risk to CT just make it easier for everyone to get a calculation for wear in those conditions ??


No as i don't see how it would help you for a full race.

This said i don't think this is something we need but then again it is season break and then people come up with weird idea's :)
Peter Peyper
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Kiriman lama #35 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 08:58:18 (terakhir disunting Dis 4 2014, 08:59:13 oleh Peter Peyper) Sebut 
This has been brought up before but I personally find this the most frustrating & unrealistic part of the game where a Manager can have a car that’s parts wear (%) are 95% and higher.

However some of these Manager’s still manage to obtain pole position & fastest laps in a race even though their engine/gearbox is 99% (If you follow the race’s you take note of these things), and they don’t even last 5 laps in the race. Next race the same scenario replays itself again.

These managers don’t even spend money to upgrade their parts but just keep raking in the pole position & fastest lap’s to make their own stat’s look good and to make a small profit.
My opinion on this must be based on the same principle as testing, in testing if you have a part 90% and greater you are not allowed to do testing anymore unless you change the part.

To me practice and qualifying must be based on the same principle. However, I would like to add that in race mode this should only apply to parts that are 95% and greater. (Example: If any part is 95% and higher you are restricted to only to 2 practice laps and your qualifying laps, but you will be demoted to the back of the grid (Penalty) for the race. (Unfit car for race) So no more pole position for free and earning a nice bonus for doing nothing.

By implementing this we will keep the racing honest and a lot of Managers happy playing this game the honest way.
Andrey Baydin
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Kiriman lama #36 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 09:06:44 Sebut 
Grid penalties actually seem like a good idea to me
Tibor Szuromi
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Kiriman lama #37 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 09:10:24 Sebut 
Quote ( Andrey Baydin @ December 4th 2014,09:06:44 )

Grid penalties actually seem like a good idea to me
Yes.
Kenny Ng
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Kiriman lama #38 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 09:16:56 Sebut 
Could there be a financial penalty too? Especially if the manager concerned is not currently in any financial difficulties. Perhaps he could only run 2 practice laps but be charged for using 8 practice laps?
Niels Wolters
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Kiriman lama #39 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 09:19:05 (terakhir disunting Dis 4 2014, 09:20:42 oleh Niels Wolters) Sebut 
bad suggestion as newbies will need 8 practice laps, while the big teams need just a few laps or even none -> this was related to the first suggestion of P&Q wear

The 95% wear part suggestion seems war fetched as well.... as this only happens in the lower leagues IMO
Andrey Baydin
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Kiriman lama #40 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 09:23:58 Sebut 
Well financial penalty is already in place actually, in form of sponsors.
Might not be a big deal in Ama though
Kevin Parkinson
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Kiriman lama #41 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 10:12:11 Sebut 
Quote ( Peter Peyper @ December 4th 2014,08:58:18 )

This has been brought up before but I personally find this the most frustrating & unrealistic part of the game where a Manager can have a car that’s parts wear (%) are 95% and higher.

However some of these Manager’s still manage to obtain pole position & fastest laps in a race even though their engine/gearbox is 99% (If you follow the race’s you take note of these things), and they don’t even last 5 laps in the race. Next race the same scenario replays itself again.

These managers don’t even spend money to upgrade their parts but just keep raking in the pole position & fastest lap’s to make their own stat’s look good and to make a small profit.
My opinion on this must be based on the same principle as testing, in testing if you have a part 90% and greater you are not allowed to do testing anymore unless you change the part.

To me practice and qualifying must be based on the same principle. However, I would like to add that in race mode this should only apply to parts that are 95% and greater. (Example: If any part is 95% and higher you are restricted to only to 2 practice laps and your qualifying laps, but you will be demoted to the back of the grid (Penalty) for the race. (Unfit car for race) So no more pole position for free and earning a nice bonus for doing nothing.

By implementing this we will keep the racing honest and a lot of Managers happy playing this game the honest way.


If people are getting pole position and fastest laps regularly with fully worn parts, then what is going on with the rest of the managers in that group?? If managers can't qualify ahead of them, for example, then the problem isn't with the person on worn parts. High risks at low levels can explain the fastest lap thing, but surely only and rookie, and maybe amateur.

Also, there are times, especially for newbies or people that have simply made a mistake, to need to race on highly worn parts with little hope of finishing the race. Is it productive to punish newbies by restrictions like you speak of to resolve something that really isn't an issue?

Chris Lee
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Kiriman lama #42 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 10:51:26 Sebut 
Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ December 4th 2014,10:12:11 )

If managers can't qualify ahead of them, for example, then the problem isn't with the person on worn parts.



Nonsense. Managers on a pole/fastest lap/burn out strategy will be running very low fuel in Q2 giving a massive advantage over those planning for a full race.
Erik Šindikov
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Kiriman lama #43 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 11:31:30 Sebut 
Although i disagree on the idea in general, as it has a bit too much loop holes at the moment.

Then i agree with Chris statement on low fuel in Q2. But we should also consider tyre difference in some races. Let's say it is 0,5 or something and the only possible strategy to go with is using hard compound then the pole/fastest lap takers would go with extra soft.
Rimantas Sagatas2
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Kiriman lama #44 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 11:56:32 (terakhir disunting Dis 4 2014, 11:58:41 oleh Rimantas Sagatas) Sebut 
It is a little of a problem in lower divisions, when managers get poles only for using softest tyre compounds because they know that their cars will smoke in the race anyway and tyre strategy won't make a huge difference to the final position.

There are some races where tyre difference is huge enough to offset pace loss due to very weared parts. Thus managers who trully deserve the pole (in assumption that their package is the best) might not get it only because they used the right tyres (harder ones) to win the race. While the pole sitter has softest tyres because he decided to throw out the race "pace".

However it's still a valid tactic to smoke out some races, though not necessarily the best one. Such manager of course will use softer compounds to get more cash from qualifying and we shouldn't punish for that as it's an important part of chosen strategy.

"If any of your car part has a wear of 99% or higher, you will receive a 1 place penalty to your starting position."

This could solve the problem easily and without much loss to a manager who is planning to smoke in the race. The guy who is the best from the ones who will be trully "racing" in the race gets the pole, and the smoker gets his cash. Win win situation.

Martin Warnett
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Kiriman lama #45 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 11:58:51 (terakhir disunting Dis 4 2014, 12:01:28 oleh Martin Warnett) Sebut 
Quote ( Chris Lee @ December 4th 2014,10:51:26 )

Quote ( Kevin Parkinson @ December 4th 2014,10:12:11 )

If managers can't qualify ahead of them, for example, then the problem isn't with the person on worn parts.



Nonsense. Managers on a pole/fastest lap/burn out strategy will be running very low fuel in Q2 giving a massive advantage over those planning for a full race.


Spoken from experience, eh teammate?

Fuel loads obviously have an effect, other factors can affect the Q1 time which could theoretically offset the fuel load difference.

Regardless, it's a non-issue for me and probably many others. Let people smoke, let people pit within a few laps. Won't affect my strategy focusing on race pace.

EDIT: Picking up from Rimantas post, there's another issue for me. Any action taken against say managers using "wrong tyres" for qualifying simplifies the game with regards to selecting tyres for races, surely? As in "hey, you used x soft, take a penalty, really should have been med-hards...". Over time, would be able to work out tyres to used based upon that rather than by analysing data surely?
Eric Bolder
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Kiriman lama #46 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 12:15:59 Sebut 
If you can't beat someone who has 99% wear on lots of parts for pole then you don't deserve pole.

And if you want the pole so badly just put low Q2 fuel too :p.
Jukka Sireni2
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Kiriman lama #47 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 12:19:16 (terakhir disunting Dis 4 2014, 12:21:35 oleh Jukka Sireni) Sebut 
A simple solution without ridiculous penalties would be to make 99% part slow down car more than it does now. If for example with every 99% you were 0,2s slower, with 5 parts you would be already a second slower and it would be much harder to get pole and fastest lap.
Martin Warnett
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Kiriman lama #48 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 12:26:33 Sebut 
Quote ( Jukka Sireni @ December 4th 2014,12:19:16 )

A simple solution without ridiculous penalties would be to make 99% part slow down car more than it does now. If for example with every 99% you were 0,2s slower, with 5 parts you would be already a second slower and it would be much harder to get pole and fastest lap.


Without getting too FOBYish, I'd say that already happens indirectly in my experience. Maybe the effect should be increased or an additional direct factor introduced.

The only argument against people being "allowed" to do it is that others feel they aren't in correct grid position, they deserve the qualifying money more.

Just seems a spurious argument to me. People can setup their strategies as they see fit after all; smokers like that aren't going to materially affect the race which imo is more important.
Chris Lee
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Kiriman lama #49 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 12:31:05 Sebut 
Quote ( Martin Warnett @ December 4th 2014,11:58:51 )

Spoken from experience, eh teammate?


Absolutely. I am able to win pole and have a quick shot at a fastest lap again safe in the knowledge that I am already assured promotion regardless of race result, but with the added bonus of saving a few quid on not upgrading parts.

Although within the rules, it is however unfair. Jukka nailed it but suggesting worn parts should slow you down. Start the effect at 90% and increase so that a 99% worn part is virtually useless (as the wear percentage would imply).

Managers still have the option to smoke if they want to smoke, but do so out of the way of managers that want to race and with no chance of a financial reward.
Martin Warnett
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Kiriman lama #50 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 12:44:57 (terakhir disunting Dis 4 2014, 12:45:40 oleh Martin Warnett) Sebut 
It may be nominally unfair but then again it's not a major issue in the cosmic scheme of things.

What would be the moral difference between say someone with parts that wouldn't smoke going the ultra soft tyres/low fuel to get a pole, FL for achievement purposes or other reasons? Aren't they also tanking race pace to get a benefit - which also costs "normal" managers money?

How would that approach be countered by the proposals given?

I'd be concerned if the game became more linear by forcing people to do things this way and this way only - which as you well know Chris was my argument in another online game.

There's definitely an argument to be had as to how smoking parts affect lap times. Should qualifying laps be the same as normal race laps, where there's a chance of a part breaking thus affecting your lap time? Yes - and I'd say that's the only real rationale I'd agree with.

If you've a part at 99%, say for example the % chance of it breaking in a race lap was 75% then maybe adjust that chance of a break by the approach you take for the qualifying lap; more you try to force the lap, more chance part will break. You then start the race with that part broken.

The reason I'd not argue against that would be that it's consistent with the race lap generation - part breaks, you go slower. That would help mitigate against the "smokers go pew pew pew" approach naturally.

I just don't want a nanny state game.
Jukka Sireni2
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Kiriman lama #51 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 12:49:30 Sebut 
Quote ( Martin Warnett @ December 4th 2014,12:44:57 )

What would be the moral difference between say someone with parts that wouldn't smoke going the ultra soft tyres/low fuel to get a pole, FL for achievement purposes or other reasons? Aren't they also tanking qualifying to get a benefit - which also costs "normal" managers money?


They get disadvantage by doing so, while those who will retire anyway won't get any disadvantage. So the first one is a valid (but usually stupid) strategy, the other one is exploiting a loophole. (Or some may see it that way. I don't see much of a problem, though it's a very long time since I have been in divisions mostly affectecd by it.)
Jon Day
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Kiriman lama #52 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 12:51:53 Sebut 
Fastest lap & pole position prize money should ba done as percentage, taking into account your finish position. That way smokers will get less reward :) Simple really...I amaze myself sometimes with how brilliant and simple my solutions can be =)
Chris Lee
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Kiriman lama #53 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 12:54:39 (terakhir disunting Dis 4 2014, 12:57:26 oleh Chris Lee) Sebut 
Quote ( Martin Warnett @ December 4th 2014,12:44:57 )

Should qualifying laps be the same as normal race laps, where there's a chance of a part breaking thus affecting your lap time? Yes - and I'd say that's the only real rationale I'd agree with.


Agree. This, and only this.

What is a Wing with 99% wear after all? Cracked? Chunks missing? It certainly should not perform as well in qualifying as a shiny new one.
And managers that invest in new parts should not be deprived of financial rewards for Pole and Fastest Lap by skinflint Managers like me who use knackered, second hand, knock-off gear.
Kshitij Sharma
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Kiriman lama #54 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 13:51:30 Sebut 
This Should be done el pressidente please.Managers often use high risks in p and q .There should be risk usage in 2 laps of p
Max Watson
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Kiriman lama #55 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 14:12:45 (terakhir disunting Dis 4 2014, 14:16:38 oleh Max Watson) Sebut 
I don't really see a need to make any changes to the current system. As other people have said, the only leagues in which this strategy is viable are rookie and (possibly) amateur: the only two leagues in which money is no object anyway. Nobody in a higher tier is going to pursue this strategy, as the disadvantages are manifold and vast.
Kshitij Sharma
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Kiriman lama #56 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 14:23:54 Sebut 
So implement for only rookie and amateur .Also it should be shown if driver do a mistake in q1 and q2
John Henderson
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Kiriman lama #57 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 14:27:50 (terakhir disunting Dis 4 2014, 14:28:46 oleh John Henderson) Sebut 
Quote ( Peter Peyper @ December 4th 2014,08:58:18 )

(Example: If any part is 95% and higher you are restricted to only to 2 practice laps and your qualifying laps, but you will be demoted to the back of the grid (Penalty) for the race.
Quote ( Rimantas Sagatas @ December 4th 2014,11:56:32 )

"If any of your car part has a wear of 99% or higher, you will receive a 1 place penalty to your starting position."


Great idea Peter. Don't care to restrict practice laps as some don't use them anyway.
I like 99% as Rimantas suggests but a 10-spot grid penalty.
Chris Lee
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Kiriman lama #58 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 14:40:08 Sebut 
Quote ( John Henderson @ December 4th 2014,14:27:50 )

Great idea Peter. Don't care to restrict practice laps as some don't use them anyway.


Rookies do. Bad idea.
Mark Wright
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Kiriman lama #59 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 14:49:49 (terakhir disunting Dis 4 2014, 14:54:11 oleh Mark Wright) Sebut 
Quote ( Chris Lee @ December 4th 2014,12:31:05 )

Start the effect at 90% and increase so that a 99% worn part is virtually useless (as the wear percentage would imply).


Some parts will last a whole race at 91% regardless so why would you want to penalise someone who is getting the most from their parts?

You could suggest that fastest lap is only awarded to those that finish the race or those that finish the race and are not smoking. Of course that then brings randoms into the equation ;)

EDIT: Saying it doesn't effect others isn't necessarily true - try overtaking a broken car at Monaco!
Martin Warnett
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Kiriman lama #60 dikirim Dis 4 2014, 14:58:55 Sebut 
Quote ( Kshitij Sharma @ December 4th 2014,13:51:30 )

This Should be done el pressidente please.Managers often use high risks in p and q .There should be risk usage in 2 laps of p


How many managers use high risks on practise laps, hmm?

I suspect you're agreeing with something despite not understanding the whole topic.
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