Put quite simply Webber and Vettel are both the tea boys and Horner is the catering supervisor. The ultimate bosses are the sponsors that pay their money and I'm pretty sure they won't be impressed with what has happened unless we assume that any publicity is good publicity. In this day and age that's not necessarily true.
The situation requires action from Horner simply to reinforce his position within the team/business. If he takes no action then quite simply Vettel runs the team and in any business that makes Horner's position untenable. You simply can't have a subordinate do whatever the hell they want and making a mockery of their boss.
Quote ( Marcio Cosentino @ March 25th 2013,20:08:46 )
You think Alonso and Kimi (only to stay with current one) will listen this kind of order ?
I don't think so.
This kind of driver make rules, not follow them.
Then I guess they will just have issues with the team owner ...
Rosberg listened to what the team said. Vettel did not. Similar situations. I'd keep someone like Rosberg in my team, because he knows how to listen ... Period.
Quote ( Andrei Ciuchi @ March 25th 2013,20:12:51 )
Then I guess they will just have issues with the team owner ...
Rosberg listened to what the team said. Vettel did not. Similar situations. I'd keep someone like Rosberg in my team, because he knows how to listen ... Period.
I prefer to have a 3-time champion with "bloody eyes" to win in my team over a driver how blindly obey the orders just to make the "perfect employee".
I prefer someone to tell me "Stay quiet and let me do my job" and win a race over a driver to tell me "OK sir" and finish in second place.
The only thing I disagree with him is that he should have manned up, and said to the public exactly what he thought, i.e that he is a driver and he is in it to win, and so he acted to the best of his judgement.
I think teams are selfish, the relation between a team and a driver should be a symbiotic one(equal standing and mutual support rather than the team being superior). When the team says they care more about the team points rather than the finishing order, they are being selfish and don't recognize the desire of the drivers.
At the same time I don't support a driver who would ram into his team mate just to finish first.
I support what Vettel did because the risk of an accident was very small, and even then, such a risk is inherent in a sport like this. If a team doesn't want the risk of their 2 cars crashing, then that team should not be competing on Motorsport.
It is like saying I want to have a Football club, but I don't want the risk of suffering an own goal, so I'll tell my defenders never to kick the ball back to the goal keeper...
Also, too many drivers are just wussies, who only care about racing and nothing else, for them, of course having the job and following orders is most important.
But for someone that is in Vettel's position he can afford to do what he did, and if ALL drivers rebelled against team orders, then they wouldn't exist.
Imo there are only 3 cases where team orders could make sense: 1- In a situation where overtaking is highly risky, e.g Street circuit with rain 2- At a point in the championship where one driver has no chances. 3- A clear situation where, give the difference in pace, holding out one driver could likely make both drivers lose position, e.g blocking when 1st and 2nd on Monaco, but the blocker is so slow they will finish many positions behind(like 4th and 5th instead of 1st and 2nd).
And finally, team orders when it is only the second race on the championship, without fitting those conditions, just stupid imo.
Quote ( Marcio Cosentino @ March 25th 2013,20:08:46 )
You think Alonso and Kimi (only to stay with current one) will listen this kind of order ?
Alonso will not receive this kind of order. Otherwise he will be in other team already in next day (McLaren story).
Ordering this to Vettel was highest level of disgrace from Red Bull team. This is not question what RBR must do. It is question what Vettel must do....And NOW! If he will race for RBR next season then he is not a champion but clown.
Remember what Alonso did in McLaren. This was reaction of champ! Lets see if Vettel also is one....
Webber was leading from Vettel on lap 40 when the German, while attempting an overtaking manoeuvre, collided with his team-mate and crashed out of the race.
Vettel said: "I was quicker. I dived down the inside. I had the corner."
No rain and not a street race??
Quote ( Leonardo Bittencourt @ March 25th 2013,20:29:23 )
1- In a situation where overtaking is highly risky, e.g Street circuit with rain
Quote ( Andrei Ciuchi @ March 25th 2013,20:38:02 )
Except Webber wasn't told to move over ...
He should have been told...lets see now Webber is in no way going to be challenging for the title come end of the season, I like the guy but thats not happening. So what if Vettel would hae finished 2nd and Alonso would have won the title in the end with a 7 point gap coz Massa will move over always. Ever point is important.......
2010 was different, we can't compare this with 2010, Vettel was a no one then, he is 3 time world champion now, you expect to be the no 1 driver in a team.
Quote ( Sachin Checker @ March 25th 2013,20:45:35 )
He should have been told...lets see now Webber is in no way going to be challenging for the title come end of the season, I like the guy but thats not happening. So what if Vettel would hae finished 2nd and Alonso would have won the title in the end with a 7 point gap coz Massa will move over always. Ever point is important.......
Yes, every point is important. Hence why they seemed more interested to get both cars to the finish.
They didn't tell Mark to step aside for a reason ... I suggest you ask Red Bull what that reason was.
It's not like Webber would ignore team orders to not attack his team mate, oh wait!
But he didn't ignore them - I was there, he had plenty of opportunities to overtake him, but didn't, he was just trying to prove a point, about them favouring Vettel. Even on that video he backed out when he could have just driven past him.
Whatever anyone says in favour of Vettel - You are still all forgetting that Webber has neevr disobeyed the team orders and has done so much to help Vettel before now. This was the first time Vettel was asked to do anything to help Webber.
Brazil 2011 doesn't count, because Vettel's gearbox was broken anyway
What does this have anything to do with the topic?
I don't think there is any discussion that the overtake attempt was perfectly safe, the only problem is that for some unknown reason he turned right into Webber.
If he had kept straight and gone into the corner like every single driver did, he would have made a clean overtake.
Yes it was his fault, but I'd say mostly because of a stupid driver error, rather than a bad attempt at overtake, any driver could have done that cleanly(and loads did that day).
When I said risk, I said risk related to the track or the cars(rain, mechanical issue, cars with very bad tyres or damage etc), not risk of driver mistake.
Driver mistake on a dry and clean track is an inherent risk of the sport, it is not a reason to say "Oh you are not allowed to overtake because you MAY lock the tyres and run into the side of your team mate". F*ck that, this is the inherent risk of the sport, and frankly the reason we all watch(and also a reason they don't have ABS brakes ;) ).
I will never forget the British GP 2010 (I was there), after Vettel was given Webber's wing, and he got a puncture on the first lap. Never have I heard a crowd cheer so loud.
I really don't like Vettel but from a team point of view it is stupid to not just ask Webber to move over. It is rather obvious who is the more gifted driver and most likely to be there come end of season. This unclarity more than anything is going to cost them because from now on, Webber is not going to be very helpful and won't coast if he is in the lead again, he'll make sure he continues to push so Vettel doesn't catch up to start with. In this way, they'll be risking both cars in a similar situation.
That said, Vettel's move was stupid. Had he taken out both cars with that move against team orders, he'd been one very sorry guy today.
Forget Hamilton v Alonso - The best rivalry in F1 is Webber v Vettel. The best rivalry since Prost v Senna
Hamilton winds every good teammate up because he is so spoilt, but Vettel is so unpleasant, and Webber is the opposite, that it is fantastic when they fight.
Quote ( Finn Shaw-McIver @ March 25th 2013,21:45:26 )
Quote ( Jack Benson @ March 25th 2013,21:42:50 )
...and Webber won that race. I know. And he deserved it.
Forget Hamilton v Alonso - The best rivalry in F1 is Webber v Vettel. The best rivalry since Prost v Senna
Hamilton winds every good teammate up because he is so spoilt, but Vettel is so unpleasant, and Webber is the opposite, that it is fantastic when they fight.
How is it a good rivalry when the one driver is crap and the other is shaping up to be one of the greats?