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Topik: Balance Blocking/Overtaking better |
149 balasan
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Why change?
Can we all have a change to play this game or wat?
We don't get the time to change our game or there will be other thibgs changed😠.
Just let the game now i understand why so much people are leaving this game.
Why try to figger this game out? If it change so much.
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ August 24th 2017,10:55:18 ) Your suggestion is to reduce blocking by increasing the number of defensive driver mistakes. How does that have a different impact on race strategy than reducing blocking by increasing the number of successful overtakes?
If anything I'd say the suggestion is more extreme than doing that. It would actually be harmful to try to block, rather than just ineffective.
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At least you guys seem to understand it's only to make blocking with a very high block setting (50-100%) a bit more risky than same % overtaking.
That somehow makes blocking harmful though, rather than ineffective (as it is now?)
But, fair enough, crap suggestion i suppose.
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Attempted blockers aren't punished enough. Simply due to overtakes being too tough. Not many people actually set much def risks.
They brought boosts in to help with this, It was the wrong fix imo.
The blocking works fine on certain tracks for a pretty obvious reason, Not OT of track but another track characteristic. However the overtaking model is broken at certain tracks. However it'll be documented as a feature. ;)
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Keeny's back; we know this will be on the recent topics for a while :D
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Quote ( Atli Thor Johannesson @ August 23rd 2017,09:23:40 ) Personally I think the result of higher block % should be 30-50% more punishing than the same amount of % risk for overtake.
Lets say.. the two are equal up to around 20% defend/overtake, they could be more or less the same.
However, after taking it above 20% defend/overtake, there could be a growing difference between the two... culminating in perhaps 50% difference.
I think this will lead to less trains being formed, making the races more exciting.
Perhaps this is something that has been raised before and probably several good reasons why this would not be a good thing, however I have a hard time seeing why more overtaking and more excitement in the races would be a bad thing.
Being stuck in a 10 car Trulli-train for 20 laps, kills the fun of the race a bit, imo.
What evidence do you have that people have been using high defence risks this season and not being punished with driver mistakes.
Are you confusing the fact that 4 of the 8 races so far this season have been on hard or very hard overtaking tracks?
In those scenarios trains can happen with zero defence risks if the core race pace is good enough.
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Quote ( David Rolleston @ August 24th 2017,14:38:21 ) What evidence do you have that people have been using high defence risks this season and not being punished with driver mistakes.
It has nothing to do with this particular season, over any other.
I've been here since season 45, so i'm not completely new and love this game as it is. Nothing NEEDS to change. :)
The leader of trains seem to rarely make mistakes, while those packed behind more often do. However, they could obviously be making mistakes from their own defense % settings, rather than overtake settings. After all, the train-leader is only pressured from behind, while the "followers" both have to attempt an overtaking, while defending from behind, raising the risk value.... i expect.. (not sure though)
Quote ( David Rolleston @ August 24th 2017,14:38:21 )
Are you confusing the fact that 4 of the 8 races so far this season have been on hard or very hard overtaking tracks?
No, not at all.
Quote ( David Rolleston @ August 24th 2017,14:38:21 ) In those scenarios trains can happen with zero defence risks if the core race pace is good enough.
Agreed.
Thanks for pointing all of this out in a constructive manner.. :)
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Quote ( Mike Brummert @ August 24th 2017,01:12:46 ) Sure, my guesses at your motivation aside then, I'm just saying that if you take away blocking, the race just becomes 40 or so simultaneous time trials. Then strategy decisions are straight math and the managers you're racing b come a non factor. Takes away from the game, in my opinion.
You are right blocking should stay but its not realistic that you can block someone who is at least 1 sec faster for 20+ laps... Every racer knows its harder to defend than to overtake!
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Quote ( Christian Beaulieu @ August 24th 2017,20:22:40 ) Every racer knows its harder to defend than to overtake!
It's harder but possible. In gpro blocking strategy in impossible.
Yes, you may destroy other people race by blocking them quite a while. But creating blocking strategy as a winning one in not possible due unbalanced driver errors balance at the first place. Every error for a blocker is a last one in terms of winning strategy while overtaking error is not even close that heavy. Overtaking/blocking errors balance has to be 100:1 with the same risk used.
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Well almost a year later and I still think blocking is WAY too overpowered. 2nd race in a row that was more or less ruined (not that I would be in points but still)
...Unless there was some change I'm not aware of.
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Adjust your strategy to take into account the blocking.
Blocking is here to stay... Too often the ones complaining the most are the ones which are not adjusting strategy for it.
The fastest on paper strategy is not always the fastest on track. This is true in both gpro and in real racing.
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Although true Daniel, it still is absolute horeshit that if I'm catching up by over 1.6sec a lap that same guy is able to block me for the remainder of that stint.
It's not the blocking per se, it is the DM's associated with OT and DF and the chance of getting them that are off and in the benefit of the defender. It shouldn't be like that imo
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My main issue about adjusting strategies is the fact blocking is less frequent and less harmful if you're a frontrunner, so basically blocking puts an asymmetrical strategical burden on the manager depending on his package, acting as a further exacerbation between managers.
There are plenty of stuff that amplifies the differences within the pack: driver motivation acts as a snowballing advantage (and a long term handicap if the manager got hit by bad luck pure randoms), top 10 money, especially in the higher leagues, is also an amplifier. Sponsorship is an even more extreme exponentially increasing handicap depending on the manager's package (Roland has already explained this several times). Energy, another amplifier. Blocking increases the issues (strategy wise, it is pretty much straightforward for a frontrunner while a complicated and still highly luck dependent task for the rest of the managers, especially those on the back).
Hence, I think it isn't as simple as "improve your strategies". There are too much things in the game that handicap being a back of the pack guy and digging out a hole is a very unpleasant and hard thing to do. Wasted CT, energy and cars for nothing or little gain due to blocking, more frequent for people in that hole, adds more to that heavy burden.
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I know someone who uses 100DF risk every race without fail (in ama/Pro) and usually gets 1 DM per race. Unless you’re in Elite I can’t see how that should ever be a viable strategy.
I must have had about 30 attempted overtakes today, over the course of half the race, before I finally made one stick. Just makes the experience of watching a race, and playing GPRO in general, incredibly frustrating.
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Quote ( Twig Fahaji @ August 25th 2018,00:25:24 ) I know someone who uses 100DF risk every race without fail (in ama/Pro) and usually gets 1 DM per race. Unless you’re in Elite I can’t see how that should ever be a viable strategy.
^this
I've not that much issue with blocking, I've been at the receiving end and at the giving end of it, I consider it part of the game. But when you can consistently get away with a "block or die" strategy, even with just an Amateur driver, something is definitely wrong. I would argue the game should introduce crashes for those drivers who tried to defend (or overtake!) with too much risk, or maybe even an occasional drive through penalty for someone with high risks doing an "illegal move".
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ August 25th 2018,12:08:00 ) I've been at the receiving end and at the giving end of it, I consider it part of the game. But when you can consistently get away with a "block or die" strategy, even with just an Amateur driver, something is definitely wrong. I would argue the game should introduce crashes for those drivers who tried to defend (or overtake!) with too much risk, or maybe even an occasional drive through penalty for someone with high risks doing an "illegal move".
I like this POV, responding to in game free of choice tactics (both pro and con), with closer to RL possible results a/o outcomes. I would argue that this would add to the overall dynamics as in that the game intentions are "to manage" ... It would a level to risk management ...
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#137 dikirim Ogo 26 2018, 02:31:19 (terakhir disunting Ogo 26 2018, 02:35:18 oleh Edwin Silva)
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Penalties to blocking people would be hard to administer, tho. Many times blocking guys don't want to be blocking in the first place. Sometimes they do so simply because they can't do better, either because of lack of driver energy or because the car is too damaged and can't sustain more than low or even zero risks (I don't put in this group those who go Force way to the front with extremely low CT, which is completely ineffective but very frustrating, tho).
The problem with playing the realism card is that it gets in troubles if you go deeper into realism issues. Why would a driver planning to push harder in a race be losing more places at the start (forced lower start risks) than a driver planning to crawl on the track? Why would a blocked driver waste more tyres, energy and cars than the blocker when it should be the opposite (at least for energy and tyres)? Why would it be a decent race strategy to qualify well ahead but then go super slow on the track because the car maybe won't make it? Why is a driver trying to overtake more prone to mistakes (this one isn't rethorical; I don't actually know who has more error odds)? Why it is more than double harder to overtake in a 80 laps "normal" overtaking track than in a 40 laps one when it should be exactly the same odds per distance?
Also, I reiterate the problem is balance. There shouldn't be anything bad by being a middle of the pack guy. However, in the game being a middle of the pack guy means you're doomed. For example, after last race I was 11th in money in my group, 9th in sponsorship income, 12th in Q+R income and 28th in expenditures. You'd guess that's superb. Well, nope. I'm barely planning on ending slightly in the black and a bit in the red if I lose a contested sponsor negotiation I'm currently being involved with. Being in the averages in Pro to Elite means you'll sooner or later be doomed, depending on how many resources you brought from down the leagues. When you compound that with the fact recovering from shit in the game that leaves you with a subpar package (either mistakes or bad luck) is extremely hard, you get the whole picture. Blocking makes that situation even worse for those subpar package managers.
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ August 26th 2018,02:31:19 ) Penalties to blocking people would be hard to administer, tho.
Not really??? Would it not just be a question of increasing the chance of a little DM, a second or 2 is enough, maybe even less than a second, depending on the Defend Risks set compared to the driver's ability to handle working harder on defending?
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Quote ( Jody Parker @ August 26th 2018,03:03:29 ) Not really??? Would it not just be a question of increasing the chance of a little DM, a second or 2 is enough, maybe even less than a second, depending on the Defend Risks set compared to the driver's ability to handle working harder on defending?
This!
Excessive blocking should result in DM more regularly, and the DM severity should be sufficiently large to discourage such excessive blocking.
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Never really felt the need to weigh in on blocking too much but in this race I had a really extreme example of how blocking in the game is weighted too far in favour of the blocker. And hear me out, because I was the blocker.
Started on the wets and ended up far too high up the field after my pitstop. I held up a queue of cars single handed for 20 laps. Not just a few cars but like 15 of them. Now you might think that is not really a big deal but I have the worst car in my group by a mile. A level 4 car in Pro. I know we aren't supposed to share numbers on the forum but for the sake of the logic I was running 0 risks across the board.
OK I know Zolder's a hard overtaking track but one car holding up a train for almost a third of the race single handedly is a bit much isn't it? With no blocking risks and an awful car. I think this is an example of the balance of blocking being off.
So could the weight of the pressure behind the driver play more of a part? A good driver might be able to keep two or three cars at bay, but double figures? I don't think people really mind being blocked by a slower car but I think the trains is where the frustration with overtaking comes from.
If this makes sense I think the chance of a block should decrease the more cars you have behind you. Covering off the guy behind you might let the driver two cars back in to a gap on the other side of the track if you know what I mean. I think you see that happening in racing a lot. Defending against the driver immediately behind you presents the third party with a chance to do you both.
In a nutshell, blocking is alright but the trains... when you have no pace at all compared to the cars behind you. It's just frustrating isn't it?
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I will have to look at your race later but before doing that.
Maybe you are looking for all the credit but could it be that the guy behind you did not have the car to overtake you and he was doing all the blocking?
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This is a fair point, but plural drivers struggled to get past when they were at the head of the queue.
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Hamilton win a race with blocking....and was 2-3sec slower....hard overtaking baby 
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Lee; I looked at your replay, and whilst all of the information may well be correct, you weren't particularly slow compared to those around you.
When the leader started lap 28, you were in 11th place, with Rafael Mantovani right behind you. One lap later you were in 22nd after a DM. By lap 38, whilst you were up to 19th (primarily due to pit stops), you were only 9.5 seconds behind Rafael; I didn't look to see how much time the DM cost you, but if it was 5 seconds, then you were only 0.5 sceonds per lap slower; this seems reasonable to be able to hold up the train on a difficult overtaking track.
Whilst you have the "worst car", perhaps it was quicker than you expected due to PHA matching, or just plain setup (some may have run a hybrid wet/dry setup?).
:)
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Quote ( Mark Pinnick @ July 31st 2019,14:49:35 ) Whilst you have the "worst car", perhaps it was quicker than you expected due to PHA matching, or just plain setup (some may have run a hybrid wet/dry setup?).
Again good points. I was full wet so anyone with a hybrid would also have been quicker. But in terms of PHA matching I was pretty close. So maybe this is another foible of the PHA era.
One last thing. I have a team mate in the group and was holding him up. One other idea I had in all of this - would it be possible to have an option to let a team mate past if they were x number of places behind rather than directly behind? So if a team mate is three places behind me I can pull over and let them through, at the cost of letting the drivers in between through also?
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Quote ( Lee Ifans @ July 31st 2019,15:08:27 ) So if a team mate is three places behind me I can pull over and let them through, at the cost of letting the drivers in between through also?
I don't believe that this setting only applies to those following closely behind?
Could be quite expensive timewise if three places behind was also 25 seconds behind perhaps?
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Lee
Watched your race,
After your pitstop and up until your DM.
You were overtaken 5 times (twice by the same guy that overtook you just after your pitstop and once again aftter his pitstop and he did both easily)
you were also overtaken by 3 cars using boost laps just before their pitstops
Three overtakes were done easily by much faster cars, the other two were done by cars that have more or less your same speed in the traffic, yes they pulled away from you msotly I think because they had CTR and you were using 0 CTR as you mention.
In fact even some laps after your DM the guys that were behind you would not get away that easily.
So i think it's a matter of a combination of several things
Your car was not that slow with 0CTR (they could not use it behind you) to those behind you.
Other guys helped quite a bit (Mke, Bruno and Filippo helped you block) and they were not that fast enough in the traffic (on the clear is another history)
Your car was not that slow probably as mentioned due to PHA alignment
The fact that you were overtaken and that after your DM the rest of the cars did not pull away indicates there is nothing wrong with the balance, it was just the way the race developed.
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Quote ( Mark Pinnick @ July 31st 2019,14:49:35 ) When the leader started lap 28, you were in 11th place, with Rafael Mantovani right behind you. One lap later you were in 22nd after a DM. By lap 38, whilst you were up to 19th (primarily due to pit stops), you were only 9.5 seconds behind Rafael; I didn't look to see how much time the DM cost you, but if it was 5 seconds, then you were only 0.5 sceonds per lap slower; this seems reasonable to be able to hold up the train on a difficult overtaking track.
not a good comparison, since I had a DM on lap 35 :)
I was considerably faster than Lee but had a random early in the race and that extra pit made me go all the way down the field. Just bad luck :)
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Quote ( Graham Mercer @ July 31st 2019,15:50:12 ) I don't believe that this setting only applies to those following closely behind?
Could be quite expensive timewise if three places behind was also 25 seconds behind perhaps?
Well of course there would be a 'striking distance' so to speak, not like the driver's going to park up for 30 seconds and wait for his team mate. The let pass feature could be tweaked to give team mates a little more chance to co-operate or at least to stop you ruining a team mates race. I think you've gone too much to an extreme here.
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Quote ( Eduardo Sanchez Carenzo @ July 31st 2019,17:15:18 ) Lee
Watched your race,
After your pitstop and up until your DM.
You were overtaken 5 times (twice by the same guy that overtook you just after your pitstop and once again aftter his pitstop and he did both easily)
you were also overtaken by 3 cars using boost laps just before their pitstops
Three overtakes were done easily by much faster cars, the other two were done by cars that have more or less your same speed in the traffic, yes they pulled away from you msotly I think because they had CTR and you were using 0 CTR as you mention.
In fact even some laps after your DM the guys that were behind you would not get away that easily.
So i think it's a matter of a combination of several things
Your car was not that slow with 0CTR (they could not use it behind you) to those behind you.
Other guys helped quite a bit (Mke, Bruno and Filippo helped you block) and they were not that fast enough in the traffic (on the clear is another history)
Your car was not that slow probably as mentioned due to PHA alignment
The fact that you were overtaken and that after your DM the rest of the cars did not pull away indicates there is nothing wrong with the balance, it was just the way the race developed.
Good analysis mate. I'll have to go back and have a look at it again myself now.
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