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Topik: "Live" qualifying |
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Really , Elite is your example for me?...safe choice :P...these guys make always the right choices regarding their strategies , which will keep their drivers away from losing positions and create the crazy things I was talking about...they might actually stand up as a good prove that this thread is useless , the way I see it...
Oh btw , Alonso stated that the young talented drivers should not cross over dead bodies just to come out first in position after the first corner...He meant they need to complete their madness with more experience in order to become realy successful
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#212 dikirim Nov 13 2014, 21:42:12 (terakhir disunting Nov 13 2014, 21:49:11 oleh Edwin Silva)
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Quote ( Mark Wright @ November 13th 2014,21:25:39 )
Hmmm you couldn't have picked a worse group to try and prove your point as the lap times between those in Elite are generally quite close.
You should have used a Pro group but then maybe you picked Elite to prove the point the other way?
It's a lot more different when you are losing 2-3 seconds per lap behind the guy in front but you will know that already ;)
Actually, a few months ago I showed in another thread that the supposedly closer times in Elite is a myth. The dispersion between Elite times is just below Master, Pro and Amateur, and that because in Amateur everybody is running with the same tyres and in Master and Pro most people pick Avonn and Dunnos. If your compare the dispersion with people using the same tyres, you will find it is very similar, even when in Pro and Amateur the CT risk dispersion is way higher. I'm not too much into digging it now, but feel free to do the same checking with the race summaries. :)
I didn't pick Elite for that reason. Elite is a good example because most people are running with CT 100. Of course, you could counter it with an Amateur example, but that disregards the fact that in Amateur you gan win a lot of places above your grid just because you run CT 100, something that is a given in Elite, not because your strategy was superior and you outclassed people with your strategy insight. So I used Elite precisely because it is a level field CT wise.
Now, if you say there isn't too much dispersity because everybody are doing the right choices. Well, the right choices in GPRO are a piece of cake. This isn't rocket science. If you get some places above your actual pace/grid position it isn't because you made a right choice; it is because other people made bad choices.
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I was looking into this thread and my end opinion is that there are managers that base their race strategies on their position on the grid (which could be an "advantage").
also I understand that there are managers that keep their qualify for the last minute to avoid declaring what strategy they are going for in the race (yes, I myself have done so in the past).
Hidden qualify would solve this problem.
The game is supposed to be fun, not to be f1 exactly alike. If you want F1 game create one.
GPRO is great exactly because you don't need to be 100% of the time connected to the game to be a good manager. Even though I still see some unfair actions going on, but that's the matter for another thread.
I think that without even changing deadlines, hidded qualify could be great for game experience. I just believe would be even more fun to get into the game before the race to see where I'm starting the race from...
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OK so let's take Q times as this topic is all about Qs.
Elite from 1st to 39th last race gap (sorry Ian Lynch I'm discounting those on Pipis!) 16.887 was and in Pro 4 it was 19.755 from 1st to 37th. That to me suggests that times in Elite are a lot closer than other groups as I would expect them to be.
So therefore, in theory, losing sight of qualifying times would effectively hurt the middle ranked players most. I don't care about those who chose to do Q at the last minute as their attempts to outdo the others have their own disadvantages but suggesting that removing a strategic option to make Q more 'entertaining' in a strategic management game goes against what the game is about surely?
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ November 13th 2014,21:42:12 ) Well, the right choices in GPRO are a piece of cake. This isn't rocket science. If you get some places above your actual pace/grid position it isn't because you made a right choice; it is because other people made bad choices.
And that ^^^ has too be some of the most patronizing garbage I've seen posted on this forum to date.
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ November 13th 2014,21:42:12 ) Now, if you say there isn't too much dispersity because everybody are doing the right choices. Well, the right choices in GPRO are a piece of cake. This isn't rocket science. If you get some places above your actual pace/grid position it isn't because you made a right choice; it is because other people made bad choices.
Now follow your path and go to Race number 6 , Elite group of course...this is what happens when you cannot control all the factors anymore , no matter how good your package is...this is one of those moments in which a good solid based choice , stays a good choice (strategy) and earns you points if not more...for this sort of races people need clear data for their strategies...that´s the point of my post (#205) :
"I oppose the change if I´m not allowed to see Q times any longer....especially if I can´t relate my strategy to the elite qually times and forecast conditions...Each season brings out more or just a few possibilities to take advantage even on a weaker package...this things I´m reffering to right now are DECISIVE factors for longterm strategies that need taking a great chance for a start...this things have nothing to do with this thread , it is pure data that a good manager can make a lot of use, compared to other managers...so I need to see this data and relate it to my objectives , at the right moment (during a season not a qually session)..."
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ November 13th 2014,21:42:12 ) If you get some places above your actual pace/grid position it isn't because you made a right choice; it is because other people made bad choices.
not necessarily true..i helped a lot of my group mates go up one place this season :P...it wasn´t due to bad choices mate and I wasn´t the only one doing that
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Quote ( Mark Wright @ November 13th 2014,22:11:53 ) So therefore, in theory, losing sight of qualifying times would effectively hurt the middle ranked players most. I don't care about those who chose to do Q at the last minute as their attempts to outdo the others have their own disadvantages but suggesting that removing a strategic option to make Q more 'entertaining' in a strategic management game goes against what the game is about surely?
reading your post makes me think we´ve done our job here (the people who don´t support this useless change that might have consequences on other useful options of the game itself)...you cannot make it more clear , it´s not allowed
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#217 dikirim Nov 13 2014, 22:43:47 (terakhir disunting Nov 13 2014, 22:44:55 oleh Edwin Silva)
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Quote ( Mark Wright @ November 13th 2014,22:11:53 )
OK so let's take Q times as this topic is all about Qs.
Elite from 1st to 39th last race gap (sorry Ian Lynch I'm discounting those on Pipis!) 16.887 was and in Pro 4 it was 19.755 from 1st to 37th. That to me suggests that times in Elite are a lot closer than other groups as I would expect them to be.
Talk about cherry picking. I said the Master, Pro and Ama dispersion is a bit higher. Which is completely normal, because the OA dispersion in these groups is higher and people are using a wide range of CT risks. Actually, your example is funny. For one, I don't know why comparing from first to almost last, because people in demotion seasons are having wild times. Let's compare the time between first to 20:
Elite: 7.366
Master 1: 4.660
Master 2: 4.652
Master 3: 4.230
Master 4: 5.742
Master 5: 5.104
Pro 1: 5.495
Pro 2: 4.391
Pro 3: 6.679
Pro 4 (your cherry picked example): 7.016
Pro 5: 5.278.
Seriously, Mark. As I said, I showed this thing a few months ago. I'm not into keeping doing this again.
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Quote ( Neal Maxwell @ November 13th 2014,22:08:07 ) I was looking into this thread and my end opinion is that there are managers that base their race strategies on their position on the grid (which could be an "advantage").
also I understand that there are managers that keep their qualify for the last minute to avoid declaring what strategy they are going for in the race (yes, I myself have done so in the past).
Hidden qualify would solve this problem.
The game is supposed to be fun, not to be f1 exactly alike. If you want F1 game create one.
GPRO is great exactly because you don't need to be 100% of the time connected to the game to be a good manager. Even though I still see some unfair actions going on, but that's the matter for another thread.
I think that without even changing deadlines, hidded qualify could be great for game experience. I just believe would be even more fun to get into the game before the race to see where I'm starting the race from...
The game is fun either way...you don´t need to wish to be a title contender in Elite at some point...of course for that you cannot simply copy paste some data and expect to be enough ...but the game offers lots of possibilities for everyone to try and enjoy a better experience while not having to do with all the stressful things and planning that is actually the only option (flexible option but the only one) ...you can even make special requests so you can race your friends in private groups , etc etc...there is always the great silly game community and so on...
But I do have one request from people like you (I prefer to generalize as I don´t hold anything personally against you)
Please guys , try and understand things better before having this illusion that u already know everything about the game after reading a few posts or ideas that bring a smile on your faces...the concept of the game is way more than many of you guys think they know...you are missing too many details when u try to argue about needing to be a good manager with no efforts
Quote ( Neal Maxwell @ November 13th 2014,22:08:07 ) I just believe would be even more fun to get into the game before the race to see where I'm starting the race from...
we all get into the game as rookies mate...the question is where do you plan to reach your limits , or simply finish the game...as far as your profile tells me , you should try wishing for more instead of suggesting to all of us that we should play more Formula 1 PSP or whatever
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Quote ( Mark Wright @ November 13th 2014,22:11:53 ) Quote ( Edwin Silva @ November 13th 2014,21:42:12 )
Well, the right choices in GPRO are a piece of cake. This isn't rocket science. If you get some places above your actual pace/grid position it isn't because you made a right choice; it is because other people made bad choices.
And that ^^^ has too be some of the most patronizing garbage I've seen posted on this forum to date.
Sorry if this offended you. When I get results, I acknowledge they are because my package is better, I used higher CT risks or other guy did a mistake. I find it less patronizing than saying it was due to my strategic superiority.
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ November 13th 2014,22:53:14 ) Sorry if this offended you. When I get results, I acknowledge they are because my package is better, I used higher CT risks or other guy did a mistake. I find it less patronizing than saying it was due to my strategic superiority.
Tell you what , we´ll keep this idea opened till you have reached the Master level , or even a tough season in Pro groups
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Im on the fence with this idea myself..in every form of racing that Im familiar with, qualifying is open for all competitors to view as they are made and not hidden..new managers have to learn strategies and if qualifying were hidden it would slow the learning curve for them and we all know when new you can learn alot by watching what the more experienced managers do.however I do see how this would be good for experienced managers in the upper levels as they would be able to keep their strategies from being advertised ..Its a good idea but not sure as I see pros and cons here and not sure whats the lesser of the two evils so to speak
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lol Ceapa, you really think you know much more than everyone else/ are better than everyone else :)
All the veiled digs are rather amusing :)
Just because you think a certain way does not mean you are right?
I notice you are still waiting to do your qualies :D
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Quote ( Ceapa Florin @ November 13th 2014,23:03:50 ) Tell you what , we´ll keep this idea opened till you have reached the Master level , or even a tough season in Pro groups
And your point is exactly what? If I do badly in Pro I'll recognize I suck badly. This wouldn't be the first thing I suck badly in life. But if you feel fine by "keeping this idea opened" to then rub it to my face, be my guest.
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Ceapa, you must have posted 20% of the posts in this thread.
We all know your opinion you like your advantage, we get it!
I would like to hear from someone who actually codes the game to see if this is something there thinking of or if it's a flat out no. Then at least we would know if there was any point discussing it properly.
Surprised nobody has made a poll.....
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ November 13th 2014,23:09:04 ) And your point is exactly what? If I do badly in Pro I'll recognize I suck badly. This wouldn't be the first thing I suck badly in life. But if you feel fine by "keeping this idea opened" to then rub it to my face, be my guest.
Don´t take it so personally mate, that´s not my point ...I´m just trying to inspire you lol...I´m sure you will be able to see things more clear once you get some taste of it ;)
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Quote ( Phil Hartley @ November 13th 2014,23:13:21 ) Surprised nobody has made a poll.....
The thumbs on the OP generally act as a poll :)
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Quote ( Peter Willmore @ November 13th 2014,23:07:21 ) I notice you are still waiting to do your qualies :D
Yep , I must be a realy ferocious contender with my barely 6 lvl car ...I´m still waiting to see if I can deceive Gino Zernani´s Hancock strategy :P
Quote ( Peter Willmore @ November 13th 2014,23:07:21 ) lol Ceapa, you really think you know much more than everyone else/ are better than everyone else :)
I noticed that you´re kind of an....offf topic mate
Quote ( Peter Willmore @ November 13th 2014,23:07:21 ) Just because you think a certain way does not mean you are right?
still asking yourself??
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#228 dikirim Nov 13 2014, 23:21:38 (terakhir disunting Nov 13 2014, 23:22:18 oleh Edwin Silva)
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Quote ( Ceapa Florin @ November 13th 2014,23:14:33 ) Don´t take it so peronally mate, that´s not my point ...I´m just trying to inspire you lol...I´m sure you will be able to see things more clear once you get some taste of it ;)
Still I don't know what idea you were supposed to keep open. That I say that if I get results it is because I have better stuff and more CT than other people? Last race I won. There were a gazillion managers with the same strategy. I didn't win due do any strategy superiority. I had better stuff and high CT. Is that patronizing? Should I say instead that I managed to defeat the odds and won because my strategy was better? No. My driver has more stats, my CT risks were a higher number than theirs. Simple as that. Nothing to be proud of.
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Quote ( Phil Hartley @ November 13th 2014,23:13:21 ) Ceapa, you must have posted 20% of the posts in this thread.
We all know your opinion you like your advantage, we get it!
I would like to hear from someone who actually codes the game to see if this is something there thinking of or if it's a flat out no. Then at least we would know if there was any point discussing it properly.
You´re right...I don´t use too many words usually...not on the public forums at least
I subscribe to your thought ...I think the admins should show some sort of reaction , at last
"Still I don't know what idea you were supposed to keep open. That I say that if I get results it is because I have better stuff and more CT than other people? Last race I won. There were a gazillion managers with the same strategy. I didn't win due do any strategy superiority. I had better stuff and high CT. Is that patronizing? Should I say instead that I managed to defeat the odds and won because my strategy was better? No. My driver has more stats, my CT risks were a higher number than theirs. Simple as that. Nothing to be proud of."
Rookie and Amateur are not Pro , Pro is not Master ...Simple as that mate...Everyone play his game , I chose to try and be a part of any top , as an individual manager or together with my teammates, both is better...All I´m saying is that things will be changing at the top...you will find out yourself that Elite is not the only place where the top 10 managers use the highest possible CT risk , among other things that I hope will challenge you to find more strategy options to fullfil your own objectives...doing that , it might help you get a clear view on my point on this thread...
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Quote ( Ceapa Florin @ November 13th 2014,23:19:58 ) Quote ( Peter Willmore @ November 13th 2014,23:07:21 )
I notice you are still waiting to do your qualies :D
Yep , I must be a realy ferocious contender with my 6 lvl car ...I´m still waiting to see if I can deceive Gino Zernani´s Hancock strategy :P
Quote ( Peter Willmore @ November 13th 2014,23:07:21 )
lol Ceapa, you really think you know much more than everyone else/ are better than everyone else :)
I noticed that you´re kind of ....offf topic mate
Quote ( Peter Willmore @ November 13th 2014,23:07:21 )
Just because you think a certain way does not mean you are right?
still asking yourself??
Do not mess with my teamate...I will sabotage your racecar or hide some dead fish in the cockpit :p
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ November 13th 2014,22:43:47 ) For one, I don't know why comparing from first to almost last, because people in demotion seasons are having wild times. Let's compare the time between first to 20:
Because the idea is about Q for everyone not just Q for the first 20!
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ November 13th 2014,22:43:47 ) Pro 4 (your cherry picked example): 7.016
Hardly cherry picked by using the group I am in.
The issue that's come out of this is do we do away with a strategic choice for EVERYONE by hiding Q times because some get an 'advantage' by doing Q at the last minute. This is a strategy game not outrun so removing strategy will essentially result in more luck becoming involved. If you want to see races where whole groups are on extra soft tyres then so be it but making things more of a lottery does not reward those who put some time and effort into playing the game.
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Quote ( Shane Ferguson @ November 13th 2014,23:24:24 ) I will sabotage your racecar or hide some dead fish in the cockpit :p
As long as you don´t hide my precious Q lap times...and if you still do , make sure it´s in my car!!!
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#233 dikirim Nov 13 2014, 23:43:28 (terakhir disunting Nov 13 2014, 23:49:01 oleh Edwin Silva)
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Quote ( Mark Wright @ November 13th 2014,23:35:21 ) Because the idea is about Q for everyone not just Q for the first 20!
And what's the point of including the times of a lot of people who are demoting and many of them with drivers whose OA is way below their league. That doesn't make any sense at all.
I find it rude that you suggest that I picked Elite just to fit my point. I'm not that of a cheater. I picked Elite because that's the least biased group: no OA limit, most people running with CT 100, less people doing stupid mistakes and nobody doing the lower leagues annoying less fuel load in the second stint to get better qualys. All of that obfuscate the data. Same as why I only included the top 20 in the qualy dispersion estimation (which stands for basically every qualy threshold you define besides the biased demotion places).
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Quote ( Edwin Silva @ November 13th 2014,23:43:28 ) And what's the point of including the times of a lot of people who are demoting and many of them with drivers whose OA is way below their league. That doesn't make any sense at all.
You don't think they count with 9 races of the season left? I'm pretty sure most of them will want to retain despite your sweeping stereotyping.
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ November 13th 2014,23:43:28 ) nobody doing the lower leagues annoying less fuel load in the second stint to get better qualys
You don't like the fact that people use that as part of their strategy either?
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#235 dikirim Nov 14 2014, 00:07:24 (terakhir disunting Nov 14 2014, 00:08:08 oleh Edwin Silva)
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Mark, where are you trying to go? What makes you think I'm neglecting races of the season or anything? I said top 20 are more representative of the field than using all of them, but if you want, do the same test with people evidently trying to retain. It is the same. And you will get the same results.
Quote ( Mark Wright @ November 13th 2014,23:58:21 ) You don't like the fact that people use that as part of their strategy either?
I couldn't care less of that. Actually, I'd be happy if everybody do that. What I said is that those samples obfuscate the data, because they get good qualys but obviously their final race positions aren't that good. This is madness, Mark. Complete madness. Go ahead and keep thinking Elite is way closer than other leagues, then, because the time between first and last is higher, disregarding the times of people actually contending, the standard deviation of the times, the variance and all other things that suggest otherwise but to you don't mean anything.
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I'm totally against this idea.
If this ideia is implemented, I would log only 2 days per week in the game: to see the race and then quali on Tuesdays and Fridays.
What I find to be funny in gpro is to watch quali times so I keep logging to check who qualified and who doesn't and how well or bad people performed.
I like to qualify early to see everyone's time (mine also) even when I can qualify later - due to time zone, as some people liked to state as a big advantage and I couldn't care less. I only quali on last minute if I have no option/time to do that early.
The only advantage pointed out is that people who qualify later can make better strategies because they can see more people's quali times so they have more data to work with (but maybe less time?).
No one took into account the skill of the managers. I really can't see a big deal qualifying later or early if you're skilled.
This idea would simply take away the fun I have playing gpro so far and it would make me blind 5 days a week.
You can guess how light or heavy or which tyre people are using by their quali's lap times. This idea would ONLY make it visible later - in the race day. It's just cosmetic as Mikko stated before. It would only make it clear to me in the race days instead of the days during races.
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As a random throwaway point... make q1 times visible to all, hide q2? That way you have an idea of pace and opponents tyre selection, at least.
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the negative opinions always beat down the good ideas when given enough time...all the good ideas get distorted and manipulated to fit neatly into a "bad idea" category.
It fits the evolution of mankind to a T.
strange world we live in.
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Quote ( John Henderson @ November 14th 2014,06:24:10 ) strange world we live in.
nothing wrong with the world..its the people that are strange ;)
trust me I know as Im one of them :p
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