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Ioannis Dimitroglou4
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Kiriman lama #31 dikirim Okt 7 2019, 21:48:08 Sebut 
I like Jasper idea to be honest and it will encourage gradual growth which as a strategy and way of thinking and evolving is crucial to stay competitive in elite.
On the other hand it will decrease the number of different way to reach the top of elite, which have increased after DE.


About Radek's idea. If staff untrainable also decrease, then yes it could be an idea which could work, but i fear that we will have many unwanted promotions. So it should be announced by the manager more than a couple of races before season end if it is ever to be implemented.
Andrea Squizzato
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Kiriman lama #32 dikirim Okt 7 2019, 21:51:35 (terakhir disunting Okt 7 2019, 21:52:32 oleh Andrea Squizzato) Sebut 
I think that relegation to rookie is the only fair option, it would be hard to find a balanced way to put Elite people to Amateur.
Untrainables are an advantage you get for playing the game for a long time? Then if someone retires/resets to rookie, let his untrainables grow faster afterwards depending on the total untrainables gained in whole GPRO career. This would give the possibility to reset to rookie in situations like Radek's, instead of losing whole motivation playing relegation game for 7 months. I've seen this happening quite a lot of times to many mates and other players.
Mikko Heikkinen
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Kiriman lama #33 dikirim Okt 7 2019, 22:07:43 (terakhir disunting Okt 7 2019, 22:12:37 oleh Mikko Heikkinen) Sebut 
Quote ( Andrea Squizzato @ October 7th 2019,21:51:35 )

Untrainables are an advantage you get for playing the game for a long time? Then if someone retires/resets to rookie, let his untrainables grow faster afterwards depending on the total untrainables gained in whole GPRO career. This would give the possibility to reset to rookie in situations like Radek's, instead of losing whole motivation playing relegation game for 7 months. I've seen this happening quite a lot of times to many mates and other players.

I think there is a valid point there.

Although I'd approach the matter from another perspective. Not give faster gains, but instead remove the "lose all" perspective from retiring to rookie.

To put it in an example (figures for example only)

IF an Elite (or from some other which ever group) uses the "retire to rookie" option, don't make them lose all untrainables, but instead (let's say half)

so the example:
untrainables 100 - all rookies get 10 = 90
90 / 2 = 45 (that would be the half part)
rookies 10 + earlier 45 = 55

so a "retiring" elite might have untrainables 55 to start with, that way it would't be "losing everything" one has worked for

or another example untrainables 80 would leave the retirees untrainables 45 to start with (80-10)/2+10

The untrainables don't really make all that big difference in rookie (or amateur), but IMO it could be better not to wipe out the entire GPRO career away.
Getting to keep the untrainables would be bad too, me thinks. So losing half could be a suitable compromise
Florencia Caro
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Kiriman lama #34 dikirim Okt 7 2019, 22:15:10 Sebut 
Quote ( Mikko Heikkinen @ October 7th 2019,22:07:43 )

retire to rookie" option, don't make them lose all untrainables

Rookie is meant to be a sandbox for new players to try things, hence everything gets reset every season. This goes against that principle, which I believe is a good one and does not need changing.
Mikko Heikkinen
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Kiriman lama #35 dikirim Okt 7 2019, 22:29:20 (terakhir disunting Okt 7 2019, 22:37:53 oleh Mikko Heikkinen) Sebut 
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ October 7th 2019,22:15:10 )

Rookie is meant to be a sandbox for new players to try things, hence everything gets reset every season. This goes against that principle

I do know that, and get that. Also I don't particularly disagree either :)

That said, the untrainables don't really make a difference there. It wouldn't really give an advantage over other rookies.

So I'm just saying that it might not be such a big deal to have a more gradual loss for the untrainables in rookie reset (didn't mean to limit it to just "retire option button"

also... in this idea two (or more) consecutive seasons would produce further reductions.

in shorthand the rookie reset for UnTrainables might be:


case UT=<10
NewUT=10

case UT>10
NewUT=(UT-10)/2+10


but anyways, just something to consider.
John Ibbotson
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Kiriman lama #36 dikirim Okt 7 2019, 22:30:48 Sebut 
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ October 7th 2019,22:15:10 )

Rookie is meant to be a sandbox for new players to try things, hence everything gets reset every season. This goes against that principle, which I believe is a good one and does not need changing.


If Rookie is meant to be for new players, why do we allow Elites (or anyone else with hundreds of races) to reset to Rookie? Maybe all resets could be to Ama and leave Rookie for the genuine new players.
Sébastien Boulanger
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Kiriman lama #37 dikirim Okt 7 2019, 22:38:54 Sebut 
And this can be considered also as an advantage...
The game have his mechanism, if you allow this, you can recuit à driver specifically to train him to be ultra performant in ama or pro, then go up quickly and recome to elite as soon as with no respect for the ones who comes in the game and build from rookie....

Then, it's already said, you will get unwanted promotions or retains in some groups, this will become unplayable.

For me, the only thing who have to be changed was the ability to be in negative, who is a no sence when you are leading and group and to be demoted.
Eventually, you promote, with negative balancy or sell parts to be in positive....
This is more fair 🤣
Florencia Caro
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Kiriman lama #38 dikirim Okt 7 2019, 22:51:06 Sebut 
Quote ( John Ibbotson @ October 7th 2019,22:30:48 )

If Rookie is meant to be for new players
Quote ( Florencia Caro @ October 7th 2019,22:15:10 )

Rookie is meant to be a sandbox for new players to try thing

I said something different, don't "misquote" me to bring up something else. Anyone can be there, but it still needs to be a sandbox for new players.
Antonio Guzzo
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Kiriman lama #39 dikirim Okt 7 2019, 22:51:39 Sebut 
Quote ( Roland Postle @ September 22nd 2016,13:40:51 )

I like the idea, and it's really not hard to impose limits when you're not wasting brain capacity being negative...

- We have per division Driver &amp; TD limits already
- Hefty relegation taxes that are division dependent already (apply the one for the division you're going to, not coming from)
- Facility levels, done too (maybe trainable staff skills should be brought to the same level instead of being allowed to degrade naturally)

- Car parts aren't really a problem
- Test points could be taxed heavily above a certain appropriate limit for each division
- Sponsors are tricky but many 'genuine' relegaters have no sponsors anyway so they could just be automatically lost for any multi-division drop (would dissuade power-relegating to a much lower division). Some could be taken down stored on 100% but let's not forget you can do that already


Now the discussion has reached a satisfactory level.
And the opinion was given by nothing less than a hepta champion.
I also liked the idea of Ioannis Kalogirou.
Radek Czech2
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Kiriman lama #40 dikirim Okt 7 2019, 23:17:37 Sebut 
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ October 7th 2019,18:35:35 )

Let's face it: never-reducing staff untrainables are simply a broken game mechanic.

It is. Or it isn't. It's a complicated area and I guess we need another topic for this discussion as this one is about something entirely else :)

There are no untrainable skills loss at the moment so I don't want to lose it. If it ever will be implemented I'm glad to lose it while relegating. For now I'm afraid that my basic idea is a bit blurred :)


Quote ( Sam Wainwright @ October 7th 2019,18:49:50 )

I don't want to come across as disrespectful to Radek, but the suggestion sounds like someone wanting a rule to be made so that he can play exactly how he wants and not have to face the downside of the way he wants to play.

The point is I CAN go to ama whenever I want to. It's all about losing half year to do this. I'm only asking for a feature that saves our precious real-life time.

And I've got another idea here, Vlad will love this ;) As it doesn't give you better results in the game, it can be implemented as an extra paid feature. I can pay for saving 6 months :)


Quote ( Ioannis Dimitroglou @ October 7th 2019,21:48:08 )

i fear that we will have many unwanted promotions.

Quote ( Sébastien Boulanger @ October 7th 2019,22:38:54 )

Then, it's already said, you will get unwanted promotions or retains in some groups, this will become unplayable.

1. We will have more retains in elite as managers above the line can relegate to ama. Easier retention in elite is a good thing IMO - more players can choose long-term strategies.
2. We will have more extra promotions from pro to master. Another good thing IMO as pro is the hardest level if you train a driver from ama. My champ seasons were easier than pro, believe me :) More promotions from pro lead also to easier retention in pro. Which leads to more extra promotions from rookie - not bad also.
3. Relegations from master to ama give us more extra promotions from ama. There are a lot of people in ama racing on CT 0, scoring points and earning money so it will be limited as they need to avoid unwanted promotion.

Anything else? Maybe there are some minuses, but I don't see it TBH.
Mikko Heikkinen
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Kiriman lama #41 dikirim Okt 8 2019, 00:03:58 Sebut 

Quote ( Radek Czech @ October 7th 2019,23:17:37 )

The point is I CAN go to ama whenever I want to. It's all about losing half year to do this.

You could "retire" to rookie and promote right away, that would save time but it would also mean losing potentially (let's say) 6-10 years worth of stuff

That's where posts #33 & #35 come in :)

But would that be an undesired solution, that's another question ;)
Edwin Silva
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Kiriman lama #42 dikirim Okt 8 2019, 00:19:16 Sebut 
I like the idea, but this underlines something very important about the game. As Radek implies, the main objective of this rule is the ability to demote to Amateur, because I don't think anybody would choose to go to Rookie, resetting the untrainables, or to Pro, where resources are scarce. That raises the main issue here: the intention is to go straight to the league where resources are more easily gathered, while skipping the boring Master and Pro sections on the way down.

This wouldn't be an issue at all if possibilities were similar in the different leagues, but that's far to be the case. Instead, once momentum (resources) are gone in Pro/Master/Elite, the best choice is usually a straight way to Amateur instead of trying to hold on. The promotion sponsors rule only made this issue more marked, and whereas my data is lacking due to obvious unknown values, it is clear the sponsorship intake produced by promotion sponsors is very high, which encourages getting as many of those as possible (i.e. going to Ammy or doing the Master/Elite(pipis)/Master thing.

Vlad has the whole dataset, so it is easier for him to do an actual analysis of the effect of promo sponsors in the grand scheme of things, but it is undeniable the fact the majority of Elite winners in the last few seasons since promo sponsor rule became effective (including any winner from this one) got a handful of promo sponsors and either Amateur hoarding or Master/Elite yoyo-ing.
Roland Postle7
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Kiriman lama #43 dikirim Okt 8 2019, 06:12:44 (terakhir disunting Okt 8 2019, 06:15:56 oleh Roland Postle) Sebut 
Quote ( Edwin Silva @ October 8th 2019,00:19:16 )

As Radek implies, the main objective of this rule is the ability to demote to Amateur


Quote ( Edwin Silva @ October 8th 2019,00:19:16 )

This wouldn't be an issue at all if possibilities were similar in the different leagues


Possibilities in different divisions are never going to be similar because there's a vast difference in average manager ability between each division. So as long as any resource gathering, including driver training, (ie. momentum) is allowed at all in the game it will be easier and quicker to gain it in lower divisions.

But it's a good point that almost no one truly wants to select the division they relegate to, they pretty much want to start again at the easiest one. We do have that option already, it's just very undesirable because of the loss of untrainables in Rookie. (The reset of all resources except driver at the end of each season there makes Ama a bit nicer target for immediate resource gathering too, but there are ways a player can work with that).

So, while choosing a division to relegate to would be nice, it's a more complex balancing task - involving thorny issues like extra unwanted promotions - compared to simply addressing the loss of untrainables which would best be solved by.. getting rid of them entirely.

Andrea Squizzato
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Kiriman lama #44 dikirim Okt 8 2019, 07:07:04 Sebut 
Quote ( Roland Postle @ October 8th 2019,06:12:44 )

getting rid of them entirely.

Well that was my first idea, but I felt I need cup next to my name to write it.
Graham Mercer
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Kiriman lama #45 dikirim Okt 8 2019, 08:35:18 Sebut 
The boring downward slide required for relegation is a disincentive.

If you take away this disincentive then GPRO will be more like a game of ‘Snakes & Ladders’ with managers zipping up and down the standings at the faintest whim to correct any perceived mistakes.


Robin Goodey
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Kiriman lama #46 dikirim Okt 8 2019, 08:49:13 Sebut 
Every major game change should (in theory) have a balance to it - positives and negatives.

Being able to jump down from E/M to Ama immediately would be a positive (time and enjoyment wise) obviously, and retention of untrainables would be another

So we need some negatives to stop this being an exploit.....otherwise people will (potentially) drop into amateur with level 10 cars, maxed out (for amateur) facilities, with several stored sponsors (whether normal or promo), they will have the ability to jump onto a TOP elite sponsor just before leaving elite, and then easily take that (even versus someone running top 3/4 in elite the next season) by doing very well in amateur......


So you would need to address all these points for game balance, or Edwin's fears about money coming from amateur will be exacerbated by elite managers using this as an exploit.


Getting this balance right would imo be pretty tricky to do correctly, and therefore while it might be a NICE change, I don't think it's worth the risk to implement....



Pierre Lisbonis
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Kiriman lama #47 dikirim Okt 8 2019, 09:33:47 Sebut 
Quote ( Robin Goodey @ October 8th 2019,08:49:13 )

Every major game change should (in theory) have a balance to it - positives and negatives.

Being able to jump down from E/M to Ama immediately would be a positive (time and enjoyment wise) obviously, and retention of untrainables would be another

So we need some negatives to stop this being an exploit.....otherwise people will (potentially) drop into amateur with level 10 cars, maxed out (for amateur) facilities, with several stored sponsors (whether normal or promo), they will have the ability to jump onto a TOP elite sponsor just before leaving elite, and then easily take that (even versus someone running top 3/4 in elite the next season) by doing very well in amateur......

So you would need to address all these points for game balance, or Edwin's fears about money coming from amateur will be exacerbated by elite managers using this as an exploit.

Getting this balance right would imo be pretty tricky to do correctly, and therefore while it might be a NICE change, I don't think it's worth the risk to


Agreed
Edwin Silva
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Kiriman lama #48 dikirim Okt 8 2019, 10:20:27 Sebut 
Quote ( Roland Postle @ October 8th 2019,06:12:44 )

Possibilities in different divisions are never going to be similar because there's a vast difference in average manager ability between each division. So as long as any resource gathering, including driver training, (ie. momentum) is allowed at all in the game it will be easier and quicker to gain it in lower divisions.


Quote ( Robin Goodey @ October 8th 2019,08:49:13 )

Edwin's fears about money coming from amateur will be exacerbated by elite managers using this as an exploit.


88 from the top 100 richest managers are in Amateur, 8 from the remaining 12 have just left Amateur, another 2 left Amateur 2 seasons ago. More than fear, it's a reality, and the reason many managers decide to take the long route down to Amateur and perhaps at least partially the reasoning behind Radek's proposal.

Whereas I agree with Roland true similarity can't be achieved, these numbers show an abysmal difference. One could argue the effect of cash gets relatively quickly diminished by taxes (although not about promo sponsors), but it is a fact there is a huge supply down the ranks, not only due to reduced overall competition level but, specially, due to the very low expenditures required in Amateur.
Diogo Abdalla
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Kiriman lama #49 dikirim Okt 8 2019, 20:18:29 Sebut 
I think the problem with untrainables giving too much of an advantage for older players can be addressed by setting caps per tier, as suggested by Jasper. And that would make resetting to rookie more attractive choice too, since you would be losing most of the untrainables by relegating to ama too

But even then, I think an option to relegate directly to amateur would still be good: rookie is no place for someone who been to master/elite anyway, less experienced players competing with real rookies is a good thing. And playing to lose for 3 seasons is boring for the one doing and also means this player is occupying a spot on master/pro that could be used by someone playing for real. Just tax it so heavily that the manager wont be much stronger than a player who just promoted from rookie would usually be

Tan S Lake
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Kiriman lama #50 dikirim Okt 9 2019, 02:49:01 (terakhir disunting Okt 9 2019, 02:52:08 oleh Tan S Lake) Sebut 
I would certainly be in favor of opening up the option to relegate to Ama. A failed promo bid in Master, or a poor run in Elite, can take over a year in real life time to fix the way it currently is. Resetting to Rookie loses all those hard-earned untrainables, so that's not a favorable option either.

A possibility I thought of before is an 'Ama reset', similar to a Rookie reset, which could be done by managers in any tier, and has to be chosen in advance. The Ama reset could basically be the same as Rookie reset, but with untrainables intact and a level 3 car to start with instead of level 1. Staff trainables reset to 10, facilities down to 0, and $30,000,000 to start with. Driver can be kept if below Ama OA limit. Sponsors all reset, one 10-race starting sponsor like in Rookie.
Ioannis Kalogirou
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Kiriman lama #51 dikirim Okt 10 2019, 05:27:10 Sebut 
- Even after 3 years it is good that we started thinking about the obvious.
...there are dozens more suggestions to discuss.
- Good Day from Beautiful & Irresistible Sithonia/Chalkidiki/Macedonia/Greece.-
:)
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