they penalizied Vettel in Montreal Ricciardo in France and they didn't penality Verstappen here .... is the same season with same rules .. or everyone or no one ..... or this is a false championship this is injustice !!!!!
3 completely different situations. None of them to be penalized if you ask me (with RIC being most 'justified' but the tarmac should just not be there, once it is intuition takes over on drivers). But I guess you're a little too "Italian and Ferrari" to be anywhere near objective. Which I understand even admire the passion, just don't expect the world to share it... ;)
yes sayd by an neatherland person ( uhm Verstappens is from Holland ) yes !!!!
Yeah I know. But if you actually had read the comments you would have known I consider the F1 sports bigger than any team, driver or nation for the last 35 or so years and that includes VER. Besides it's about 7 hours since race finish; time to calm down on emotions ;)
ok from now the bumper car is lecit .. no more penalty ok ??? is demolition derby right now ^^ anyone can have penalty and lose the race ( without collision ) anyone not ... ok this is the modern F1
demolition derby? Come on. They touched wheels, but the corner was a fair fight I thought. I don't recall Rosberg getting a penalty for turning in on Hamilton in 2016. Now that was a worthy penalty, but for some reason he did not get one. Probably because he finished off the podium, yet had he actually been given one, the championship might have been a different story. Ferrari fans, go home ;)
Personally, I can live with the fact that no penalty was given.
The thing is though, I hate the general attitude that current drivers have on overtaking "I have the racing line, so you have to concede." That's not racing, racing would be going side by side through the corners, leaving just enough space for both cars on track. A great example was given the lap before the incident. There is no need to push other drivers out wide if they are alongside and it shouldn't be allowed if it was up to me. But over the past years, it has always been allowed so therefore it is agreeable to me that it is no penalty.
I think there are two things that must be done to solve this: 1. Make sure the rules don't allow it, and teach drivers to have respect for each other on the road. 2. Gravel traps and grass
Quote ( Peter Willmore @ June 30th 2019,20:28:35 )
even if you believe there are inconsistencies and look on the incident similarly which they are not , it could only have cost them 1 win, because you must either believe the Vettel penalty is right or Verstappen not getting one is wrong :)
Personally - Ferrari should never have been penalised in Canada. Which means Max should keep his win here.
HOWEVER the key point is, the FIA did take that win from them in Canada and set a precedent to lean on the side of penalties when a 50/50 incident occurs.
The fact they failed to maintain that consistency is what will make Ferrari feel robbed of two wins
Quote ( Jonathan MacLean @ June 30th 2019,23:20:33 )
Quote ( Peter Willmore @ June 30th 2019,20:28:35 )
even if you believe there are inconsistencies and look on the incident similarly which they are not , it could only have cost them 1 win, because you must either believe the Vettel penalty is right or Verstappen not getting one is wrong :)
Personally - Ferrari should never have been penalised in Canada. Which means Max should keep his win here.
HOWEVER the key point is, the FIA did take that win from them in Canada and set a precedent to lean on the side of penalties when a 50/50 incident occurs.
The fact they failed to maintain that consistency is what will make Ferrari feel robbed of two wins
Quote ( Jonathan MacLean @ June 30th 2019,23:20:33 )
personally - Ferrari should never have been penalised in Canada. Which means Max should keep his win here.
HOWEVER the key point is, the FIA did take that win from them in Canada and set a precedent to lean on the side of penalties when a 50/50 incident occurs.
The fact they failed to maintain that consistency is what will make Ferrari feel robbed of two wins
Your logic fails where you say Vettel in Canada was a 50/50 situation. Given the rules how they are written today, Vettel in Canada was 100% a penalty and the stewards did nothing but apply the rules.
If you say the rules suck, that would be a valid opinion, but you cannot say the situation was 50/50.
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ June 30th 2019,23:35:01 )
Your logic fails where you say Vettel in Canada was a 50/50 situation. Given the rules how they are written today, Vettel in Canada was 100% a penalty and the stewards did nothing but apply the rules.
Despite my opinion and doubts you're 100% correct here; it was by the rulebook.
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ June 30th 2019,23:35:01 )
If you say the rules suck, that would be a valid opinion, but you cannot say the situation was 50/50.
The rules suck so bad - for a number of years already - that any baby would have died of underfeeding.
EDIT: or we men wouldn't like BJ's anymore but not sure if I'm allowed to say so.. :) (this site is 16+ right?) . Anyway 'advanced'track regulations are bad. Real bad. Men need to be separated from the boys again. Like Senna and Schumacher (and many before them) used to do. I.e. real racing needs to come back with 'cojones' instead of stewards, gravel/grass instead of tarmac and wings& tyres allowing to functional slipstream instead of DRS. Don't care about the engine cause I undertand commerce needs their advantage too. Althohether F1 needs to be 'real racing' again. Somewhat like I saw on Road America last week (Indy car)
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ June 30th 2019,23:35:01 )
Your logic fails where you say Vettel in Canada was a 50/50 situation. Given the rules how they are written today, Vettel in Canada was 100% a penalty and the stewards did nothing but apply the rules.
If you say the rules suck, that would be a valid opinion, but you cannot say the situation was 50/50.
My interpretation of what happened at Canada was that his steering motion was corrective which, had he not done, would more than likely have caused a collision and taken them both out. To say he deliberately turned toward Hamilton to block him in my opinion is not only wrong but asinine.
To say that I cannot call that decision a 50/50 is as equally valid or invalid as your opinion.
I think you and Jasper are 50/50 tied on the was/was not 50/50 debate. I think the only agreement is today was not 50/50 and thus we can safely say that whatever was/was not applied in Canada should not be directly compared to what was/was not applied in Austria. Though I agree with Macca that Ferrari will feel robbed of two wins from what they will now view as bad steward calls and conspiring against them/favouring mercedes. etc, etc.... (which we all know is BS, but this is how Ferrari is wired, eh).
Quote ( Jonathan MacLean @ June 30th 2019,23:56:50 )
My interpretation of what happened at Canada was that his steering motion was corrective which, had he not done, would more than likely have caused a collision and taken them both out. To say he deliberately turned toward Hamilton to block him in my opinion is not only wrong but asinine.
The steering motion was probably corrective, yes. It corrected his own excessive throttle input which was a very intentional act of doing everything he possibly could to keep his position. A split-second, instinctive decision, which was by no means an assassination attempt. But it was still his own doing, and the rules are crystal clear. Hamilton himself worded that nicely: "I would have done the same thing, but it's still a penalty".
When I see Ferrari fans complaining about the FIA being against them, I can always only think of one thing. The single biggest rip-off steward decision in F1 in the last 20 years, without discussion.
(the 2nd biggest, in my opinion, was Hamilton's penalty that gave Massa the win in Spa 2008, although I respect that there are different views on that one)
Don't want to 'derail' the topic, but isn't it a bit sad all we talk about is penalty yes/no for at least the last 3 races? Is that what we want F1 to be or do we want more races like today (with still a lot to improve but it could be a re-start...).
Today it was a fellow countrymen, but I wouldn't have enjoyed this race any different if it had been any other driver/team overtaking it's competitors on track for the win like today. Isn't this what we want to see (and a bit more of it) and should / could be expecting from F1?
Quote ( Stefano Scanzani @ June 30th 2019,18:09:20 )
So does verstappen deserve a penalty or not??
ofcourse not. Leclerc left the door too much open and Max took it the best way. Leclerc should have been breaking earlier and cross backwards Verstappen to regain position. He choose for the outside what was not possible and regain track on a dangerous way. I think if a penalty was deserved it was for Leclerc. But glad FIA made it a race accident.
Quote ( Peter Willmore @ June 30th 2019,20:07:57 )
Quote ( Jay De Snoo @ June 30th 2019,19:55:34 )
After the mistake with VET earlier this season (Montreal) looks like they (the stewards) learned not to kill racing altogether. So no Twitter explosion tonight ;)
I personally don't think the Montreal decision was a mistake, and this decision is totally different as Montreal was to do with the safety of Vettel Re-entering the track.
I think in general today's decision was the right one, However one question I do wonder about is do we think the stewards would of made the same decision if there was a wall there and Verstappen had put LeClerc into a wall rather than just shoved him off the track
Uhm Leclerc does have breaks in his car right? SO he should have used them earlier.
Round earlier Leclerc was didn't allow verstappen to overtake him with that much aggresion, Leclerc was more in the middle of the track. Therefor Verstaappen had to give him the space. Space he used to regain position.
Second situation, Verstappen stayed long behind leclerc, made the impression he wanted to go to the outside, what made Leclerc moved more to the left. Hereby he gave Verstappen too much space to dive deep in the turn. A moment Leclerc should have breaked earlier and take a shorter turn to go backwards Verstappen. He decided to keep rolling straight. verstappen has nothing to do with this decision. There was space on the inside for Leclerc to go, he only didnt take it.
The problem I have with that decision is although VET clearly made a mistake under pressure, there is not much he possibly could not have done otherwise or any better after that occured. The alternatives IMO: 1) Braking on grass >> spin & hit the wall, 2) hitting the throttle on grass >> spin and hit the wall wall. 3) Full steering on grass >> spin and... 4) Not making the corrections when back on track again = hit the wall.
In all 4 of those 'options' I doubt if he had not taken HAM with him / if HAM would have been able to avoid a crash.
Exactly, he made a mistake! And we talk here about Elite sport. Mistakes needs to get punished. Vettel took the risk and he lost. He could have regained the track slower and in a more straight line (according to the rules) and he would not have received a penalty, but probably lost the position. he choose for more risk and with that blocking Hamilton what resulted in a penalty.
DRS, spoiled the overtaking thrill since the "complainers" thought that F1 had to few overtakes. If I can agree with that argument, I also have to say that nowhadays its to easy to overtake due to DRS, so the thrill of an overtake has lost some impact....BUT
on this GP, even with DRS was amazing to see the fights.
Quote ( Stefano Scanzani @ June 30th 2019,18:09:20 )
So does verstappen deserve a penalty or not??
ofcourse not. Leclerc left the door too much open and Max took it the best way. Leclerc should have been breaking earlier and cross backwards Verstappen to regain position. He choose for the outside what was not possible and regain track on a dangerous way. I think if a penalty was deserved it was for Leclerc. But glad FIA made it a race accident.
What are you smoking? Lec got run off the road... If it was the other way around you'd be crying for a penalty for Lec. Racing incident yes, but it should not be one rule for one and a different rule for others and the rules do say you have to leave a car width for the other driver as to not put them in a dangerous situation
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