Grand Prix Racing Online Forum > Formula One forum > [F1] 2019 Italian Grand Prix Tambah topik ini kepada senarai abai anda Tambah topik ini kepada senarai pemerhatian anda
Halaman « 1 2 3 [4 Lompat ke halaman:
Pengarang Topik: [F1] 2019 Italian Grand Prix 100 balasan
Niek Nijboer
(Kumpulan Amateur - 83)


Kiriman: 86
  Negara:
Belanda 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (0)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (2)
Kiriman lama #91 dikirim Sep 9 2019, 22:49:22 Sebut 
Quote ( Wopke Hoekstra @ September 9th 2019,19:02:10 )

I'll only shortly react to this since it's a bit off the Monza topic, but I want to show my point of view on racing in general. I disagree that Verstappen gave room on the inside and thus had no need to give room on the outside. Leclerc was far enough alongside to be entitled the space, before the door was shut on him. Same here in Monza, Hamilton was far enough alongside to be given a car's width of space and if the black/white flag was available in Austria, I am fairly sure they would have applied it to Verstappen too (which means a warning would have been given). I don't really know why the drivers nowadays think they can "own" a corner by having the inside line or the racing line, or by the virtue of "being ahead". Those unwritten rules are absolute nonsense in my opinion.


First of all the black/white flag has always been available. The moment has been reviewed after the race with resulting no further action. So that clearly tells that there was nothing wrong with the action of Verstappen.

But back to the bot hsituations. The big difference is the position of the defending car. leclerc / Verstappen, Leclerc was on the outside as he gave to much space. Leclerc should haven taken his loss and break and take the inside. There was plenty of space available. Only it looks it was not possible, but that's because we continue the line Leclerc was taking, keep staying on the outside and running out of the track. It was Leclerc driving into Verstappen and not the other way around. verstappen was in a position he didn't have to give space on that side anymore.

Leclerc vs Hamilton, Leclerc was defending on the inside, after he blocked Hamilton out of turn 3. Hamilton was afterwards partly passed Leclerc before leclerc passed by again and had a bit the lead before turn 4. But Here he moved roughly to the right a pushed Hamilton from the track, he didn't give him 1 car space. That they didn't touch was only because of Hamilton stearing to the grass to avoid contact. Otherwise it would have been an accident, that the FIA gave the black/white flag tells that it was not a professional move. The reason he was not getting a penalty was because there was no contact, bit weird, as the only reason there was no contact was because Hamilton avoided a crash by going of the track. Lost time, dirty tyres,so weak explanation of the FIA.
Wopke Hoekstra
(Kumpulan Retired)



Kiriman: 4667
  Negara:
Belanda 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (3)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (1)
Kiriman lama #92 dikirim Sep 9 2019, 23:16:42 Sebut 
Quote ( Niek Nijboer @ September 9th 2019,22:49:22 )

First of all the black/white flag has always been available. The moment has been reviewed after the race with resulting no further action. So that clearly tells that there was nothing wrong with the action of Verstappen.


It has always been there, but it was not really used anymore. If you read the news, you could have read that Michael Masi said he was reviving the flag as a sort of "yellow card" to give drivers more knowledge on what is allowed and what not, without directly penalizing them. So yes, it was always there, but they have only started to really use it again since the Belgian Grand Prix. Anyways, the "warning" was given in an instant, and it took them multiple hours to come to the conclusion that Verstappen didn't get a penalty. If he really didn't do anything wrong, they wouldn't have taken that long.

Quote ( Niek Nijboer @ September 9th 2019,22:49:22 )

But back to the bot hsituations. The big difference is the position of the defending car. leclerc / Verstappen, Leclerc was on the outside as he gave to much space. Leclerc should haven taken his loss and break and take the inside. There was plenty of space available. Only it looks it was not possible, but that's because we continue the line Leclerc was taking, keep staying on the outside and running out of the track. It was Leclerc driving into Verstappen and not the other way around. verstappen was in a position he didn't have to give space on that side anymore.


Why is Leclerc not allowed to go on the outside? Because you decide that beforehand? He had the speed and the overlap, that's the whole point I am trying to make. You are saying Leclerc isn't allowed to overtake Verstappen back around the outside, while Verstappen didn't block the outside off yet. If Verstappen was there, there was no room for Leclerc to get on his outside in the first place. Why didn't he have to give space? That's exactly what I don't like about racing nowadays. Drivers (and especially newer fans as well) think that a driver can claim the space. That is in fact the only point I am trying to make. Both moves were wrong in my opinion and didn't result in a penalty. On the one hand, we should be happy that penalties aren't easily given, but on the other hand I would love to see some more respect between drivers on track.
Alessio Girasole
(Kumpulan Pro - 22)



Kiriman: 191
  Negara:
Itali 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (2)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (0)
Kiriman lama #93 dikirim Sep 10 2019, 08:06:06 (terakhir disunting Sep 10 2019, 08:06:29 oleh Alessio Girasole) Sebut 
Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ September 8th 2019,18:58:37 )

It's exactly the other way around, Martti. I'm talking about being stricter on defensive moves. What we learned today is that you shouldn't try overtaking the way Albon and Hamilton did, because the guy ahead can simply push you off the track. The only thing you end up with is dirty tyres, loss of several positions (Albon) and possible a damaged car. So it is much better to just stay behind and go to the finish.

The current policy discourages overtaking. Handing out some penalties for overly aggressive defending would encourage it.


I am the biggest tifoso of Ferrari, and i'm in paradise for Carletto's victory.

Yet i totally agree with this statement, Leclerc's defence was too much, there's a difference between defending aggressively and pushing your opponent off the track. Allowing this kind of moves discourages overtaking.
Ceapa Florin
(Kumpulan Amateur - 40)



Kiriman: 582
  Negara:
Romania 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (0)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (1)
Kiriman lama #94 dikirim Sep 10 2019, 10:10:44 (terakhir disunting Sep 10 2019, 10:19:58 oleh Ceapa Florin) Sebut 
Quote ( Alessio Girasole @ September 9th 2019,23:16:42 )

am the biggest tifoso of Ferrari, and i'm in paradise for Carletto's victory.


Me too, Alessio

But before I agree to any statements , I want to see the bigger picture , not just one particularity ... because , on one side , Ham was talking about seeing some consistency from the stewards until this event ( thinking at Montreal and forgetting about Austria where he didn’t have anything to lose/win) , But on the other side , a super talented and valuable youngster like Charles should come to a double loser position in all this equation , no matter the facts... and the fact is that the only way for the stewards to show any consistency at all ,exactly what Ham wishes for , is to keep a balance/consistency in line of judgement between Austria and Monza , as well for the rest of the season , and then draw a line and take measures and rules to apply for the seasons to come

You don’t spoil a huge talent like Max , allowing him, in over 50% of the s..t he made in order to find his own line of progress, to get away with it , and then penalize another real talent for the future as Charles by braking consistency when Ham and fans wish for it , even if it proves they do have a strong position on this case


Niek Nijboer
(Kumpulan Amateur - 83)


Kiriman: 86
  Negara:
Belanda 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (2)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (1)
Kiriman lama #95 dikirim Sep 10 2019, 10:28:52 Sebut 
Quote ( Wopke Hoekstra @ September 9th 2019,23:16:42 )

Why is Leclerc not allowed to go on the outside? Because you decide that beforehand?


Where do I say he was not allowed, he is allowed to do what ever he wants. He is just in a losing position there, a position from where he can't claim anything. He can try to overtake from the outside, but with the risk there is no space and that he has to go off the track! I do like racing when the drivers go to the limit and sometimes over, but when it comes like the Leclerc Hamilton situation I think it's getting close to the edge. I support the black/white flag for it though. I think it was a perfect solution, just surprised that Leclerc didn't get a penalty for the multiple moving, blocking and corner cutting after the black/white flag. To me it doesn't matter who would have won the race. It's just a weird call from the stewards to completely ignore these actions.

Summary; Big fan of Black/white flag, 100% support that, as we want drivers to race and not being bitching about everything. So given them a yellow card principle is perfect. Just two yellow cards is still a red card, what is a penalty..

António Pereira
(Kumpulan Amateur - 67)



Kiriman: 4115
  Negara:
Portugal 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (0)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (0)
Kiriman lama #96 dikirim Sep 10 2019, 12:42:29 Sebut 

Quote ( Niek Nijboer @ September 10th 2019,10:28:52 )

Summary; Big fan of Black/white flag, 100% support that, as we want drivers to race and not being bitching about everything. So given them a yellow card principle is perfect. Just two yellow cards is still a red card, what is a penalty..


this!
Martti Kaasik
(Kumpulan Pro - 21)



Kiriman: 786
  Negara:
Estonia 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (0)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (0)
Kiriman lama #97 dikirim Sep 10 2019, 12:47:00 Sebut 
Quote ( Niek Nijboer @ September 10th 2019,10:28:52 )

Just two yellow cards is still a red card, what is a penalty..
Agree... but not every fault is not a yellow card as in football...

Mostly I agree give one warning before the punishment if fault is not to great(like Vettel last race).
Josh Clark
(Kumpulan Amateur - 80)



Kiriman: 5710
  Negara:
England 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (0)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (0)
Kiriman lama #98 dikirim Sep 10 2019, 13:03:08 Sebut 
...and behold, drivers changing the way they drive because the FIA are allowing shit defensive moves. First Leclerc after Austria adapting to the new meta, and now Hamilton after Sunday.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/145893/hamilton-will-chang...


Taking bets on when and where the line will be moved again. I'll start at Singapore.
Jasper Coosemans
(Kumpulan Master - 2)



Kiriman: 2208
  Negara:
Belgium 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (1)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (2)
Kiriman lama #99 dikirim Sep 10 2019, 13:15:52 Sebut 
The translation of what he is saying: "I will not try any more overtakes until I've got my title secured."

Once he has his title sealed, expect him to claim the space regardless and crash out as he did with Rosberg in Barcelona 2016. Then maybe rulemakers will see their stupidity.
Wopke Hoekstra
(Kumpulan Retired)



Kiriman: 4667
  Negara:
Belanda 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (0)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (0)
Kiriman lama #100 dikirim Sep 10 2019, 14:38:39 (terakhir disunting Sep 10 2019, 14:43:21 oleh Wopke Hoekstra) Sebut 
Quote ( Niek Nijboer @ September 10th 2019,10:28:52 )

Where do I say he was not allowed, he is allowed to do what ever he wants. He is just in a losing position there, a position from where he can't claim anything. He can try to overtake from the outside, but with the risk there is no space and that he has to go off the track! I do like racing when the drivers go to the limit and sometimes over, but when it comes like the Leclerc Hamilton situation I think it's getting close to the edge. I support the black/white flag for it though. I think it was a perfect solution, just surprised that Leclerc didn't get a penalty for the multiple moving, blocking and corner cutting after the black/white flag. To me it doesn't matter who would have won the race. It's just a weird call from the stewards to completely ignore these actions.

Summary; Big fan of Black/white flag, 100% support that, as we want drivers to race and not being bitching about everything. So given them a yellow card principle is perfect. Just two yellow cards is still a red card, what is a penalty..


Okay, you didn't say he's not allowed, but you are saying Verstappen is allowed to run him out of road, despite the fact he was way alongside. He wasn't in a losing position, as he made exactly the same move the lap before and made it stick - even though he had a bigger disadvantage that lap. There was no reason for him not to try it again. I like it too when drivers go to the limit, but to me the limit is that you keep space for the other car once he gets alongside. I do understand that that is not the rules F1 follow at the moment, but I do think it's what they should do. That is what I am trying to say.

Also, the only thing I think Leclerc could have been penalized for after the "yellow card", is the corner cut. Honestly I think they let it slip because 1. Italian GP and 2. Vettel/Canada incident. While Leclerc was "moving multiple times" on the straight to break the slipstream, I think he was doing it safely, leaving space at either side of the road while moving and only going back to the racing line for the braking zone. The sporting regulations in F1 don't involve exact rules on what is allowed and what not. If they thought it was unfair, they would have given the black-white flag way earlier. I also don't think he did any wrong blocking. There was one moment in Curva Grande, but I think that was mainly caused by the fact they were going through a corner.

Anyways, I agree with you about the summary, but with Martti as well. :)

Quote ( Martti Kaasik @ September 10th 2019,12:47:00 )

Agree... but not every fault is not a yellow card as in football...


Edit: btw I don't necessarily think your opinion is wrong, I am mainly disagreeing with the way F1 is currently look at racing and what is fair and what is not. I would personally love to see it change a bit with more respect for each other and more respect for the white lines as well. :)
Niek Nijboer
(Kumpulan Amateur - 83)


Kiriman: 86
  Negara:
Belanda 
Persijilan: 
Suka kiriman ini (0)   Tidak suka kiriman ini (2)
Kiriman lama #101 dikirim Sep 10 2019, 20:46:15 Sebut 
Or skip the white lines like in the indycar. Fair but hard racing.
Halaman « 1 2 3 [4 Lompat ke halaman:
Grand Prix Racing Online Forum > Formula One forum > [F1] 2019 Italian Grand Prix Tambah topik ini kepada senarai abai anda Tambah topik ini kepada senarai pemerhatian anda

Balas topik ini