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Wątek: [MAFIA] Forest Fire [NIGHT 3] |
1399 odpowiedzi
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#121 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 05:33:33
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I think this thing between Lyee and Grant above is NAI, but both parties contributed to it.
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#122 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 05:34:29
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,05:33:08 ) You mean you support the claim right?
I think the pros outweigh the cons.
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#123 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 05:50:01
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Tom, how are the pros out weight the cons?
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#124 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 05:53:50
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What I can picked from you (#120) are..
1. even ff is killed but they still can talk
2. town earns 1 night without douse when scum kill ff
..at the cost of we no longer have any PR there on.
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#125 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 05:54:51
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,05:50:01 ) Tom, how are the pros out weight the cons?
Did you read my post? I put out the reasons why I like the FF claiming now and mentioned a rebuttal to the reasons against.
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#126 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 05:55:17
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Ok I'll explain, give me a sec
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#127 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 05:57:14
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,05:53:50 ) even ff is killed but they still can talk
if FF is lynched they are gone, but if a tree is lynched they remain in thread and can talk but cannot vote,
Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,05:53:50 ) town earns 1 night without douse when scum kill ff
when scum kill (ignite), they cannot douse any one, but all doused targets die (and are actually gone).
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#128 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 06:01:02
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you mean what we basically get is
1. we can avoid lynch ff
2. we earn 1 night without douse when scum ignite
But I don't see how these benefits outweight the cons of giving away a ff straight.
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#129 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 06:02:12
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And for benefit #1, the ff can make his own decision to claim when he is under lynch pressure.
That trim down the benefits even more.
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#130 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 06:05:58
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,06:02:12 ) And for benefit #1, the ff can make his own decision to claim when he is under lynch pressure.
Of course, the crux of my thoughts is not that FF should claim now, it is more that town should worry less about a mislynch as we still have the 'hive mind' of those who were stumped.
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#131 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 06:07:13
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re #130 A FF claim now though means that we don't lose time barking up the wrong tree (pun), but we need not really worry about time until the deadline day.
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#132 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 06:08:36
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Don't forget while keeping the ff in dark, the scum do not know who the protect. It mean scum do not know whether their douse is successful, and in this situation scum may conservatively delay their ignite. This way, we also earn nights without kill.
In the other word, scum might be desperate to know who is ff. Are you pushing for that, Tom?
So do you still support this idea, Tom?
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#133 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 06:55:24
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,06:08:36 ) In the other word, scum might be desperate to know who is ff. Are you pushing for that, Tom?So do you still support this idea, Tom?
I support my idea about town having less risk with their lynches. I am not 'pushing' for FF, I'm just voicing my opinion that it is helpful for town. I am not going to scream or get angry if FF chooses not to reveal, I do seem to be in a minority for the FF revealing (which is fine). So yes, i still support it.
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#134 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 07:01:39
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,03:12:37 )
Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ June 17th 2019,15:44:33 )
Quote ( Alex Nikodem-Wing @ June 17th 2019,14:17:37 )
Ahh Mafia, How much I've missed playing, well at least enough to give this game a go.
##Vote Ivelin
Simply cause he voted me...
OMGUS! :)
LOL.
Just in case anyone forget to laugh, Ivelin is making funny joke here.
It will show you how to make funny jokes.
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#135 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 07:04:30
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Quote ( Grant Crouch @ June 18th 2019,04:46:26 )
Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,04:43:18 )
Quote ( Grant Crouch @ June 18th 2019,04:37:08 )
Would you rather the thread stay quiet instead? Then why don't you contribute a lil bit more content?
Because I have a day job Lyee.
Well, you're not the only one. I expect more activity from you.
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#136 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 07:15:45
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Quote ( Tom Byrne @ June 18th 2019,05:21:30 ) I see what you're saying with this, but it will take 2 whole days to kill off a PR, plus it takes one person out of the lynch pool for the situation outlined above. Plus if they do decide to take the PR out immediately, they lose a night where they can douse. I kinda hinted at the same thing with post #119.
Essentially the benefits for town of a claim are:
- Everybody has one less person to choose from for the lynch for 2 game days
- The Firefighter still has at least one attempt to block the prime (as he can't block the prime on himself on N1).
- Scum might need to waste a night to light off the FF
The benefits for scum:
- They will know who the Firefighter is and they can be certain their prime was successful, whereas without a claim they would be unsure of their success.
- Once they get rid of the FF (probably on N2), they are guaranteed to prime successfully until the end of the game and all they need to do is not get lynched.
Although I see your point of view, I still don't think the town benefits outweigh the scum benefits in this case. Not now at least. Maybe later in the game it would be more appropriate with smaller number of players in the game.
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#137 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 07:32:07
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Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ June 18th 2019,07:15:45 ) Quote ( Tom Byrne @ June 18th 2019,05:21:30 )
I see what you're saying with this, but it will take 2 whole days to kill off a PR, plus it takes one person out of the lynch pool for the situation outlined above. Plus if they do decide to take the PR out immediately, they lose a night where they can douse. I kinda hinted at the same thing with post #119.
Essentially the benefits for town of a claim are:
- Everybody has one less person to choose from for the lynch for 2 game days
- The Firefighter still has at least one attempt to block the prime (as he can't block the prime on himself on N1).
- Scum might need to waste a night to light off the FF
The benefits for scum:
- They will know who the Firefighter is and they can be certain their prime was successful, whereas without a claim they would be unsure of their success.
- Once they get rid of the FF (probably on N2), they are guaranteed to prime successfully until the end of the game and all they need to do is not get lynched.
Although I see your point of view, I still don't think the town benefits outweigh the scum benefits in this case. Not now at least. Maybe later in the game it would be more appropriate with smaller number of players in the game.
I do not agree with the 2nd and 3rd bullet point of town's benefits, because these 2 points do not come along with the claim, it exists even without the claim. Only 1st bullet is valid.
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#138 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 08:01:52 (ostatnio edytowany Cze 18 2019, 08:03:38 przez Riley Dunlop)
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Official Votecount 1.2
Jasper 2 Damir, Grant
Ivelin 2 Cameron, Alex
Alex 1 Ivelin
Cameron 1 Lyee
Damir 1 Tom
Grant 1 Jasper
Not voting: Martin
Lynch deadline is currently Friday 21st June at 20:00 CET
With 9 players alive, it will normally take 5 votes to instalynch
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#139 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 11:08:02
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,03:38:51 ) I see what you mean now, thanks.
Probably it is because I am more into looking at the benefit of town can have greater chance to lynch scum, and lower chance to mislynch a town, when we have confirmed townie.
Strange that you do not look this way, that you seems more concern about genuinity of people speech.
While knowing that we will have "clear town" of people who still can talk sincerely for town's benefit after they are "stumped", I do not understand why you see that knowing who is a clear town's with more genuine scumhunt conversation is more important than reduce to chance to mislych, or to increase the chance of scum lynch.
Quote ( Tom Byrne @ June 18th 2019,05:21:30 ) Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ June 18th 2019,03:21:00 )
However, we're all sort of in the dark right now when it comes to finding scum. So for example, if I was a confirmed townie it would not help town much because I don't know who the scum are anyway.
I fully agree with this comment as well, though. But in my eye the advantages come more so from that unique thing about lynches not fully killing off players.
I wrote this response to Lyee's comment, but it also answers Tom's:
I covered that too. What you say is correct if we are actually about to lynch the firefighter - in that case he'd better claim, so we don't mislynch him. But as long as we're not going to lynch the firefighter, knowing his identity won't prevent a mislynch, because we weren't about to lynch him anyway. So this benefit only applies if/when the firefighter is under real lynching pressure.
Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ June 18th 2019,05:29:33 ) Jasper, I think what Lyee is saying (and I’m gonna try to put it in simpler terms), considering that town players who are lynched stay in the game but can’t vote, is a FF claim’s biggest benefit the fact that we’ll have someone’s honest opinions? We’ll equally trust a tree stump.
But we we will only trust a tree stump AFTER stumping them, i.e. after the end of the Day. Whereas an uncountered FF claim can be trusted during the current Day. By the way, I'm not saying this is a big benefit, I'm saying it's the ONLY benefit (unless we're about to lynch the FF).
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#140 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 11:26:15
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Apologies for not being here, crazy days at work.
Reading, but not "in the game" right now.
I'll have some time after 21:00 CET.
Sorry.
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#141 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 13:37:02
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Quote ( Jasper Coosemans @ June 18th 2019,03:10:09 ) On the contrary, I didn't say the cost is low, I said the benefit is low. Knowing who the firefighter is on Day 1 is only a small benefit. The cost of the role claim would be that we don't get any protections from the firefighter.
And thus I find myself in agreement with Jasper. Perhaps my day isn't going so badly after all.
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#142 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 13:38:35
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,03:12:37 )
Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ June 17th 2019,15:44:33 )
Quote ( Alex Nikodem-Wing @ June 17th 2019,14:17:37 )
Ahh Mafia, How much I've missed playing, well at least enough to give this game a go.
##Vote Ivelin
Simply cause he voted me...
OMGUS! :)
LOL.
Just in case anyone forget to laugh, Ivelin is making funny joke here.
OK Lyee, don't really know why you felt it was nessecary to accentuate this.
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#143 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 13:40:46
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,03:38:51 ) I see what you mean now, thanks.
Probably it is because I am more into looking at the benefit of town can have greater chance to lynch scum, and lower chance to mislynch a town, when we have confirmed townie.
Strange that you do not look this way, that you seems more concern about genuinity of people speech.
While knowing that we will have "clear town" of people who still can talk sincerely for town's benefit after they are "stumped", I do not understand why you see that knowing who is a clear town's with more genuine scumhunt conversation is more important than reduce to chance to mislych, or to increase the chance of scum lynch.
Would it be possible to reiterate this? I have dubious feelings as to whether this is entirely logical.
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#144 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 13:42:53
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,04:38:33 )
Quote ( Tom Byrne @ June 17th 2019,13:22:52 )
It could either be a scum looking for a fight to create conversation, or a townie looking to test people's nerves and see how they react. I know Ivelin has been prone to do a bit of the latter, but Cameron you never know. He's more of an option c) other, than the two I described. I wouldn't put a label either way as yet, but it is notable for me. Tom you said you wouldn't label people with the confrontational label above, when you answered Jasper's question on your take with the confrontational players.
But it was at first you highlighted that Cam was being confrontational.
If this behavior is a null read for you, where you said you neither want to label people with a) nor b) for now; and Cam is even falling outside options a) and b), then what is the point you highlighted that "Cam was confrontational"?
What you try to establish with #41?
At times I would say you're being quite confrontational, Lyee.
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#145 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 13:51:15
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Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ June 17th 2019,15:38:21 ) Quote ( Cameron Halsall @ June 17th 2019,12:09:22 )
Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ June 17th 2019,06:55:45 )
Oh and I have played with Jasper and I can confirm he's not lying, he knows how to play, so don't worry Cameron, he's not faking his experience.
Perhaps. I suppose it's enough to believe you for now, and maybe the ideas of being trustworthy and not having any problems with his play are mutually exclusive. Still, I am not particularly warm to the idea of him having a privileged position regardless of whether you trust him or not. Is finding trustworthiness not a priority when scumhunting?
What privileged position does he have? I already said that I haven't (and you didn't comment on that) but where did I say I trusted Jasper?
Yes, obviously, but it's very difficult to completely trust someone in a game of Mafia without them being a confirmed town.
It seems a bit of a sticky wicket that you believed he wasn't lying due to his experience so easily. But as you say if that's his modus operandi then based on that knowledge it seems fairer to regard him as town aligned for now, especially after his attempts at trying to explain to Lyee why the FF claiming now is a bad idea. Naturally, an experienced town is useful, but experienced scum would know how to imitate that.
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#146 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 13:54:01
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 17th 2019,08:23:37 )
Quote ( Tom Byrne @ June 17th 2019,08:21:16 )
I disagree. Think that he's been asking decent questions (bearing in mind the earliness of the game and thus lack of solid stuff to ask about) and I haven't seen anything different from the usual Ivelin. I respect you opinion, but that doesn't change my read on Ivelin. He is still weird in my eye.
Weird as in suspicious or weird as in hard to read?
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#147 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 13:57:18
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Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ June 17th 2019,15:41:59 )
Quote ( Cameron Halsall @ June 17th 2019,12:14:21 )
I wouldn't say I'm particularly pleased with Lyee thus far, especially not in terms of his actions in conversation with Ivelin. But I'm not going to comment on that as it seems Ivelin's covered pretty much what I think, unless you'd like me to.
I'd like to hear your thoughts on the matter.
#45 does indeed seem like fluff as you say. Subsequently I also believe #104 to be fluff, totally redundant. That he has not reacted yet in any way to my comment explaining the benefit of the doubt is noteworthy.
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#148 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 13:59:54
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Quote ( Ivelin Dobrev @ June 18th 2019,07:04:30 ) Quote ( Grant Crouch @ June 18th 2019,04:46:26 )
Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,04:43:18 )
Quote ( Grant Crouch @ June 18th 2019,04:37:08 )
Would you rather the thread stay quiet instead? Then why don't you contribute a lil bit more content?
Because I have a day job Lyee.
Well, you're not the only one. I expect more activity from you.
Is Grant's MO to usually post more frequently, if you can remember?
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#149 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 14:00:19
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##Unvote Ivelin
Removing joke vote.
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#150 Opublikowane Cze 18 2019, 17:44:21
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Quote ( Lyee Chong @ June 18th 2019,07:32:07 ) I do not agree with the 2nd and 3rd bullet point of town's benefits, because these 2 points do not come along with the claim, it exists even without the claim. Only 1st bullet is valid. Wait a minute.
How come you don’t agree with the 3rd one? If the FF claims, scum will know who he is so they will have to waste a night to ignite him. If they don’t know who he is, they can’t know they got the FF, therefore won’t necessarily waste a night.
So while I agree the 2nd point is independent of the claim, the 3rd one certainly isn’t!
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