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Vlákno: Current situation and GPRO's future |
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#271 Odoslané Mar 31 2015, 14:50:46 (Naposledy zmenené Mar 31 2015, 14:55:07 manažérom Jon Garay)
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I still think using Google to find your strategy is more fun than tutorials.
I remember after every rookie race I did tons of research on the Web in order to guesstimate my strategies, so much that I neglected my job.
Then I had a friend who also played back then and we would get lunch together twice a week and discuss our findings/theories and we had graphs and pools of data. And we would access team sites in other languages and trnslate them to see if we could learn some new secret info. Those were the days. Oh and BTW we kicked some tail back in rookie, even against players who were on real teams.
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Quote ( Jon Garay @ March 31st 2015,14:50:46 ) I still think using Google to find your strategy is more fun than tutorials.
I remember after every rookie race I did tons of research on the Web in order to guesstimate my strategies, so much that I neglected my job.
Then I had a friend who also played back then and we would get lunch together twice a week and discuss our findings/theories and we had graphs and pools of data. And we would access team sites in other languages and trnslate them to see if we could learn some new secret info. Those were the days. Oh and BTW we kicked some tail back in rookie, even against players who were on real teams.
This is the answer to the question that Vlad had??
Translating websites should not be part of a game....
Plus the external sites often have crappy data to begin with ;)
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Quote ( Kevin Glassenbury @ March 31st 2015,07:45:56 )
I am new to this game, only joined this season, so perhaps can offer a newbie's perspective.
I spent a lot of time reading rules, faqs, forums etc. and the unhelpful attitude of the experienced managers offering FOBY responses to genuine questions is really off-putting. I think this general community attitude may have a lot to do with the poor retention rate of newcomers. It certainly left me an initial bad perception.
Yes it is a difficult game to master - and as a new manager we just want to come to grips with the game better. With only two races per week, not everyone has the patience to experiment over an extended time to build up their own understanding. Assistance from experienced managers either personally or in forums is essential.
i don't think that the restrictive attitude from some managers on the forum is crucial for a stampede of new managers simply because the percentage of new managers who look and participate in the forums is minimal. would be higher than 2%? i don't know.
however, I think the mentor program is key to this reorganization of the game. this is really very important. as has been said here, there should be a direct path, easy for the manager. in the very moment he gets in the game he could be able to access and contact a mentor.
for that, we would need more mentors of various nationalities.
i support a reward for good mentors. i support a kind of evaluation and, saying, 20, 30 positive reviews worth a gain of a certain number of credits.
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Quote ( Michael Keeney @ March 30th 2015,14:06:39 )
Just a side note.
I personally believe Vlad should identify say 20-25 members who could be the true voice of the community and help push the game forward. These members would be well respected members of the game.
They would not include FLO especially and any other member of the crew. I think a forum for selected members would help push this game forward and move it in the right direct. This forum wouldn't be viewable to just anyone. But they could be a true combined voice of the community. Basically average joes who love this game and understand it. No admin influences.
Do you think this would help?
A focus group of such. These are proven to help in a lot of companies.
I could only press the green thumb once :) If Flo wasnt here I would carry on
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Why haven"t we heard anything back from Admin about this topic or are they not even reading thru it?
Myself included are saying about a junior rookie group but we dont even know if this is been given any consideration.
Or is everything said on this topic going to be overlooked like most suggestions are.
Time for Admin to show their faces.
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Quote ( Michael Jones @ March 31st 2015,15:19:04 ) Why haven"t we heard anything back from Admin about this topic or are they not even reading thru it?
Myself included are saying about a junior rookie group but we dont even know if this is been given any consideration.
Or is everything said on this topic going to be overlooked like most suggestions are.
Time for Admin to show their faces.
Rome wasn't built over night, give it some time. Plenty to take in and plenty planning to do.
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Quote ( Niels Wolters @ March 31st 2015,15:04:09 ) Quote ( Jon Garay @ March 31st 2015,14:50:46 )
I still think using Google to find your strategy is more fun than tutorials.
I remember after every rookie race I did tons of research on the Web in order to guesstimate my strategies, so much that I neglected my job.
Then I had a friend who also played back then and we would get lunch together twice a week and discuss our findings/theories and we had graphs and pools of data. And we would access team sites in other languages and trnslate them to see if we could learn some new secret info. Those were the days. Oh and BTW we kicked some tail back in rookie, even against players who were on real teams.
This is the answer to the question that Vlad had??
Translating websites should not be part of a game....
Plus the external sites often have crappy data to begin with ;)
No, not part of the game, but yes part of the meta game.
Yeah they have some good and some crappy data, which is why I don't think there is a huge problem with it. You still can learn a lot that way, and you may make some mistakes as well ( I certainly did). But is it fun? Yes, very fun.
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Quote ( Michael Keeney @ March 30th 2015,14:06:39 ) Just a side note.
I personally believe Vlad should identify say 20-25 members who could be the true voice of the community and help push the game forward. These members would be well respected members of the game.
They would not include FLO especially and any other member of the crew. I think a forum for selected members would help push this game forward and move it in the right direct. This forum wouldn't be viewable to just anyone. But they could be a true combined voice of the community. Basically average joes who love this game and understand it. No admin influences.
Do you think this would help?
A focus group of such. These are proven to help in a lot of companies.
Great, we could call them admin mark twos and we can different posters to dislike them whenever they don't post enough. Really having a separate group not talking to the rest of the community about what they are thinking/deciding is exactly what others are giving out to the admins about.
I don't see how cutting members out of a discussion helps them become a voice for the community. The only advantage would be to get people who don't normally get involved in the forums involved in this discussion in which case you need to avoid well respected members of the game (who can just make their points here). If this is done I would target people in their first/second season, I think we have had two responses from people just starting off in this thread which is helpful as at the end of the day they have a more current view of how the game feels to them.
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Quote ( Vlado Rosić-Milinković @ March 31st 2015,15:22:19 ) Quote ( Michael Jones @ March 31st 2015,15:19:04 )
Why haven"t we heard anything back from Admin about this topic or are they not even reading thru it?
Myself included are saying about a junior rookie group but we dont even know if this is been given any consideration.
Or is everything said on this topic going to be overlooked like most suggestions are.
Time for Admin to show their faces.
Rome wasn't built over night, give it some time. Plenty to take in and plenty planning to do.
I didnt mean implement things staright away but give some feed back on what is being posted.
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After reading through this thread, it would appear that there are many that think this thread was about research and product development, and that they are part of R&D team, to the extent that they are questioning why they have not received a response to their suggestions.
This is a business where upon decisions are made by those that share among the risks and the rewards. They have asked for assistance in 5 subject areas as listed in the first post of this form. Seems to me that there are a lot of people who did not read these 5 points. I would think that these 5 points comprise but a portion of a plan they have developed to move this game forward.
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Quote ( Dave Morris @ March 31st 2015,15:40:59 ) . Seems to me that there are a lot of people who did not read these 5 points.
Seems to me you're making a mighty big assumption.
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Quote ( Daryl Gee @ March 30th 2015,23:31:47 ) I don't know about that, Martin. I've never been very good at gpro, but I've had a lot of fun playing it.
About half of that fun was when I was in a team and working things out and talking a bunch of bollocks with some great people in a team. (Key being the working it out with them, not being given it by them).
And the other half was the sense of achievement I got before joining that team, and after leaving it, when I worked things out totally by myself. Mostly it was stuff that a lot of people had already figured out, and that a lot of people had already been given, and that a lot of people had already found on the web, so it didn't make me achieve particularly much in terms of advancement in the game. But I figured it out myself. And that was fun.
I think embracing the principle of FOBY is fundamental to enjoying this game, but is just not a concept that fits well with the mass market.
English is not my first language i might have trouble exprssing my toughts.
What i'm trying to say is not that you should be in a team or not.
My point is that you need to know what you're selling to who you're selling it.
This is a deep, complex game of analyzing calculating and figuring out data, beeing presented (and designed) as an ordinary game that anyone with 15 min spare can work their way to the top.
And when new customers realize that HUGE clash, they leave cus its not what they were looking for.
Its like putting cola in a nicely well designed apple juice box. And present it and sell it as apple juice. As good as the cola may be its still not apple juice in the box. While some may be surprised on how good the cola is and decide to stay with you, most will still leave.
You can spend 100ooo$ in advertisement but if youre talking to the wrong ppl its 100ooo$ mostly wasted.
Ppl play this game cause its complex and deep. And thats what everbody in here wants. I surely know i wasnt expecting that when i first signed up. Bcs thats not what was sold to me.
Edit:
I was giving the team thing as an exemple. that the container doesnt fit the content. They need to realise why ppl are playing and act as such. Not to change the game but whats around it.
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How many people have said they are going to finally quit after getting another random in a critical race?
Well, I'm saying it again. Just got a puncture in a critical race with very low parts wear.
And I will follow through....some day.
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Damn, I've just spent over an hour to share my thoughts with you, couldn't save the notebook I was writing in, and all the work has gone :-(
Edit: Calmed down a bit. Will try again.
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Quote ( Mark Witney @ March 31st 2015,16:02:02 ) Quote ( Dave Morris @ March 31st 2015,15:40:59 )
. Seems to me that there are a lot of people who did not read these 5 points.
Seems to me you're making a mighty big assumption.
Wow 2 thumbs down, sadly shows just how pathetic some people are.
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Quote ( Martin Marx @ March 31st 2015,16:13:00 ) Ppl play this game cause its complex and deep. And thats what everbody in here wants. I surely know i wasnt expecting that when i first signed up. Bcs thats not what was sold to me.
Thanks, I understand you now and agree 100%.
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I've tried to read the whole thread, before coming up with my suggestions. There are plenty of very valuables post and many good ideas in this thread. Some of them goes to far for me, some won't solve the problem IMVHO, but still it's good to see that we care about this game and its future.
Here are some thoughts of a 40 Y.O. marketer:
How to make money out of GPRO? (That's the main question Vlad needs the answer for, getting new users is only one of the solutions :-)) Basically there are at least three ways. Ads, supporter incomes and merchandise. I'd like to concentrate on first two.
- Can we help GPRO to make more money on ads? Probably. I'm not sure how it works exactly, but I guess that even if GPRO is not paid for every click, higher reponse rate will turn into more valuable advertisers. Everyone of us can do it. At no costs. Just click from time to time on banners.
- How to get new players? As it has already been pointed many times in this thread, Vlad have first to answer what GPRO is and where he wants it to be in the future. But IMVHO the game should be positioned and advertised as what it is now - a management game in racing entourage. This probably won't get us youngest players, but could give us those who should really count - long term players who can afford to support GPRO. How to get them? Probably not by advertising on FB :-) I thought of some whisper marketing on specialist forums and web pages (i.e. excel, data analysts, programmers). The app should do not harm, but I am wondering if we really need it. I can imagine myself watching the race on the smartphone, lurking some forums or chatting, but not "playing" this game. For me playing is data mining and analysis, tactics preparation, season planning, etc. And I use Excel and Access for this. On a PC :-)
- How to keep players? For me the best idea is the preschool. But I see it as a place both for those who come here to have fun "racing" against friends and those who wants to learn the game. That's why I would see more races there, smaller groups (with a possibility to change them whenever you want at no costs), shorter season, easier money management and (the last but not least) simplified formulas (although based on real ones) and limited variables to analyze (i.e. driver skills and car parts limited to 4-5). This could (and should) allow the manager to stay in the preschool as long as wanted (with no limit of races done - if someone wants to stay there forever, let him stay), and give to manager who wants to start a career a good overview of the game and some basic data, but kind of data that will give not too much advantage in rookie. Some additional hints and/or tutorial will be a great help of course.
- For supporters there are two different aspects to be analyzed. How to get new supporters and how to keep them. First of all I'd analyze how the lately added tax has influenced the number of supporters. I think (that's a only a thought - some analysis should follow) the price per race decrease could raise the number of supporters and the total incomes. Secondly, free supporters credits are a good idea, but not necessarily at the career start. The manager should be able to start them by himself when he will FOBY that collecting data is the most important part of the game. For keeping supporters there are some simple and not expensive mechanisms that could be introduced. A discount for buying more than 1 season of credits at once or some features unlocked after reaching some level of races as supporter are examples of them.
I really hope that some of ideas presented and help offered in this thread will help Vlad to keep GPRO. I still have many things to achieve here :-)
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Quote ( Tomek Kiełpiński @ March 31st 2015,23:12:18 ) First of all I'd analyze how the lately added tax has influenced the number of supporters. I think (that's a only a thought - some analysis should follow) the price per race decrease could raise the number of supporters and the total incomes.
I may be completely wrong but reading between the lines the recent increased price in the EU is because of the tax error. ie. VAT should have been charged the last 4 years but wasn't? Although the rules changed a bit this year it's not new that you have to pay VAT for online services (only very small businesses were exempt). If that's the case it might be an idea to invite supporters to back-pay their VAT to help pay the bill. A lot wouldn't want to but I'm sure some will if it's a genuine error that's obviously causing headaches. Maybe give out a special 'Death & Taxes' achievement for it :) (Also check with the tax authorities directly about the legality of accepting historic VAT from customers)
Also given the probable demographic of the average long-term supporter (older players) I wouldn't be surprised if higher price per race could easily be tolerated and would generate more income even if it would reduce supporters a bit. €3.2/month (give or take VAT) is by far one of the cheapest pastimes I've ever had. Many people here, especially in the EU, probably spend more on most of: tea/coffee, biscuits, alcohol, birth-control, cinema, music, books/magazines, crappy mobile apps (and bandwidth to use them), gym, chocolate, etc... But anyway Vlad will have good data on that in the coming months for EU players. Naturally noone will be exactly overjoyed to pay more
However, Vlad has said the tax bill "is not the main problem of the game". Considering 60% of revenue was being thrown at advertising it doesn't really sound like there is a profitability problem. There is just a debt to manage over the coming years now. The bigger problem seems to be driving the continued evolution/improvement of the game and the fact it needs community effort
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The change is that VAT is charged at customer country's rate rather than sellers, to prevent companies moving around to lower-tax jurisdictions
Also more small companies have to charge VAT. Previously it looks like the sales threshold for Bulgaria was 50,000 BGN (about 25,000 Euro) per year: http://www.vatlive.com/eu-vat-rules/vat-registration-threshold/
GPRO certainly pulled in more than that (in supporter credit sales)
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1. Translation. I'm American which means I only speak 2 languages English and Bad English. But I do know how to work Google Translate. I can copy paste to my hearts content if someone that actually speaks the language can check for grammar and mistranslated words.
2. Intro videos. Again I'm not a pro in video editing but I know how to use Jing. Probably more useful for a tutorial video, but still...
3. Interactive tutorial. Yeah not much good on the interactive part, but being a recent newbie/still a newbie I think I know what is useful for getting started. I think an issue here is how much is too much when it comes to explaining setup. But that's for another discussion thread.
4. App development. Great idea. Again something I'm not capable of.
5. Driver face generation. This is interesting. I have a game that is capable of creating the same types of pictures we currently use and I'm able to copy and paste in Paint pretty good, but don't fully understand copy right law in this regard.
So that's the 5 main points that were asked about. So I want to add my suggestion here. I want to start a Viral Video. Most people here see this as an F1 management game, but I like to think of it as an Open Wheel management game. That said I wanted to replicate an Indianapolis 500 victory when I finally won and post of video drinking milk and dumping it on my head. I think #GPRO and #WinnersDrinkMilk might help stir up some free hits like #IceBucketChallenge.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_W8uWnIWNA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY-ot74cpZQ
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What game is that, Brad? Can you put a hat on the faces?
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The suggestions are good but what else can we do to get an influx of new players, especially supporting ones?
Two ideas:
First - is it possible to re-brand the engine of the game for other uses? If I think of other large 'markets' of users as an American you cant miss the NASCAR crowd. What if we took the gpro engine, rebraded it to a stock car racing theme that appeals to the US community? I 'think' the major work would be to create a new set of tracks and the rebranding. Everything else would be extendable for the most part. We wouldnt even have to tell any of those stock car folks we were even here, just create a new URL for the other 'side'. That extends the investment into the game engine to a new community of users - its always been my impression that the number of US managers in gpro is quite low.
Second - if you take that path of expansion lets open up the development activity to a broder group. Pseudo open source development concepts here - obviously we cant allow the core engine of the game go public but it seems like there could be folks out there that have an interest in donating more time to the development side and may not want to play. I'll admit this idea is much less formed as the first one. But having a group build a roadmap and develop to it would keep the community interest up - especially if there were big, fun things on the horizon.
There are more interesting things that could be done to the game to allow for more variability and accurate detail. Could we, for example, define an API or plug in format that would allow developers to build add ons for the game? Nothing that takes away from the core racing but things like pit addons, facility addons, and perhaps something that provides a more robust 'in-car' experience during races.
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Quote ( Roland Postle  @ April 1st 2015,00:20:19 ) The change is that VAT is charged at customer country's rate rather than sellers, to prevent companies moving around to lower-tax jurisdictions
Also more small companies have to charge VAT. Previously it looks like the sales threshold for Bulgaria was 50,000 BGN (about 25,000 Euro) per year: http://www.vatlive.com/eu-vat-rules/vat-registration-threshold/
GPRO certainly pulled in more than that (in supporter credit sales)
If that is the case than sorry......but find another accountant.
I have a small admin office, VAT rules should be well known by any accountant IMO
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Before I go typing; like said before, make a open poll on the page: ''What do not like about the game?''.
As somebody who came here in 2010 for the longer term; The problem IMHO is that the game market is shifting to pay-to-win games, with especially mobile applications.
Don't get me wrong we need a mobile application, but I don't think the problem relies in the'' quicker, faster, more accessible''-trend that the online game market is heading to. Good example; FIFA did this, and since the next-gen consoles you can see a shift in people wanting the completely free career mode=long term mode back and invested in.
Some of this already pointed out earlier; more visuals and more detail into the game -
because what I recall hearing from new riders who left was; that the game between the races was boring, even in amateur with 40 riders, if you do not like chatting on the forum.
A few points need to made, what I'm missing if I look to other games that have an growing income and increasing younger players;
1. Make the application, exciting to play on hand-held with a few changes;
1B: Paying for a own league to race against friends. (maybe give them a small financial bonus if they do this and finish all the races in that league).
1C: Make an apart mobile class with the winners receiving credits or money for the ''normal'' classes.
1D: Make different classes. Now we sort of only have an F1 class. Nascar/Indycar? Japanese classes? Kart classes..? Big markets needs to be targeted. (a new player won't invite his friends and the friends won't stay, if they are having problems staying in amateur in the only class we have now, with so many other games on the market.)
And yes that point system, *sigh*, people watch F1, google ''Racing manager'' and want to say ''It's like the real thing''.
It's needs to made clear and important that bringing friends gives an small advantage, and makes you advance in the game faster to new players. They'll not win everything, they'll still need to get experience and collect data.
2 New roles or functions in game, to make the racing not the only thing & make it less like ''who has a fewest car breakdowns'';
2B: Race engineers to add some more random performance to riders, or make them for example do better in quali. The thought again is, to not make newbies go mad over smth they couldn't prevent. It can make that difference between staying and leaving if a new player suddenly grabs pole position because of his determinacy to hire a good engineer = a good engineer would be able to let the driver with a failure during race, guide the driver to keep driving the car fast(er) then now.
2C: A spy facility, where you can spy on a other player in your league and gain some CCP... with a financial penalty if they get caught, which depends on the level and skill of their spies of course, so that new rookies don't get demotivated in amateur and there are actually some surprises up in the higher classes. (a newly promoted player can suddenly have a decent car when they where almost broke).
2D: Youth academy's where players can develop drivers on their own. (so that we can keep the players, who already hadn't given up when they went back to rookie or amateur because the market was horrible). That gap between the races? Fill it up with the a full new youth classes.
2E: Just like the tyre suppliers, make supplies for other parts of well. You need to give the motivated player in amateur and rookie the feeling that when they invest time in this game, and take risks, they can get in the higher classes.
Few little things;
3. Visuals; apart from the main page, the game has almost the same visuals from when I started. 5 years ago. Hmmm... The race page needs to be a huge eye-catcher. It's not on the main page for nothing right? I'm sure people who came here looked at that picture, on the main page and left when they saw something else looking like eye-candy.
3B: Skip the FOBY thing. It irritates the few that still come, and it only results in people go on
google or worse it gives fuel to team-hop. And you can find everything you want on google.
3C. Make the tutorial and newbie guide not so long. New players want to get racing fast. Make it a interactive tutorial.
3D: Make the achievements money-rewarding. NOT EVEN ONE person got all in nearly 50 seasons.
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Quote ( Olton Kramp @ April 1st 2015,23:04:24 ) 1D: Make different classes. Now we sort of only have an F1 class. Nascar/Indycar? Japanese classes? Kart classes..? Big markets needs to be targeted. (a new player won't invite his friends and the friends won't stay, if they are having problems staying in amateur in the only class we have now, with so many other games on the market.)
And yes that point system, *sigh*, people watch F1, google ''Racing manager'' and want to say ''It's like the real thing''.
That is a pretty interesting idea TBH.
It would complicate things a bit for teams (the need for multiple liveries) and I'm not sure you could really incorporate Nascar into the system ('mericans would get offended if it was anything other than Elite).
But the different levels could well be different classes ... like:
F1
Le mans
GT3
Formula Opel
Karting
or something similiar.
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Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ April 1st 2015,23:09:17 ) But the different levels could well be different classes ... like:
F1
Le mans
GT3
Formula Opel
Karting
or something similiar.
Yes but Daniel, now in real life they go from Karting directly to F1 :P
I have a boy in the street he is 6, he is driving a go-kart and I heard Ferrai wants to bring him into F1 :)
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Quote ( Niels Wolters @ April 2nd 2015,01:02:12 ) Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ April 1st 2015,23:09:17 )
But the different levels could well be different classes ... like:
F1
Le mans
GT3
Formula Opel
Karting
or something similiar.
Yes but Daniel, now in real life they go from Karting directly to F1 :P
I have a boy in the street he is 6, he is driving a go-kart and I heard Ferrai wants to bring him into F1 :)
That's why we have kshit swarma.
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Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ April 1st 2015,23:09:17 ) F1Le mansGT3Formula OpelKarting
Also at the moment a good car in rookie is able to fight when you get into amateur. A kart is never going to be close to a formula Opel car
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Quote ( Daniel Douglas @ April 2nd 2015,01:03:40 ) kshit swarma
Love it! Think Global Ferrari should consider rebranding 'The Kshit Swarmas'
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