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Konu: English 101 |
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#1 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 07:45:12
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The new thread, hoping it'll help more than just me to meet the "You may speak English only in the forum" requirement better ,-)
I've been wondering about:
"So we lived beneath _the_ waves
In our yellow submarine"
I am not sure about the (marked with underscores) "the" article above. Intuitively I'd indeed use it, but when I try to understand it based on the grammatical rules, I can't find the explanation why not just "beneath waves".
Anyone can help?
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#2 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 07:51:01
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As far as I can tell, it is basically because waves is a noun, and beneath is not an adjective. As seen in your example above, yellow fits with submarine because it is an adjective, whilst beneath is a preposition.
A proper English teacher might be able to explain that better (or what the actual definition is), but as a native English Speaker that’s how I would understand it.
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#3 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 07:55:54
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Grammatically both are correct, with or without the 'the'. 'The waves' would technically mean some specific waves, without the 'the' it just any generic waves. For example if they extended the sentence to clarify which waves 'we lived beneath the waves of the Atlantic Ocean' would be correct, and in this case the 'the' is arguably the more grammatically correct option
At the same time don't search for grammatical correctness in Beatles songs as coo coo cachoo I am the walrus is probably harder to explain :)
FYI I am English, I have a French flag as a choice as I live in Paris
Hope it helps
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#4 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 07:56:40
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To better explain, whenever we use a noun (such as waves or submarine), an article (such as the, a) is generally needed. English is weird sometimes and there are heaps of exceptions. https://www.grammarly.com/blog/articles/ this link should explain it better than I could.
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#5 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 08:33:04
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Thanks, Matt and Tom. Of course everybody knows, songs, not just the songs of The Beatles, are (with some notable exceptions) a poor choice for perfect grammar. In any language :-D
Tom, of course you're right, but treating "waves" as plural, there i no indefinite article, and that's my problem here - in my head they are more "some waves" in the example above, not the specific ones. Although... may be the second line of the text makes them (indirectly) more specific? I mean something along the lines:
"the waves (below which we are) in our yellow sub."
So, let me check if I understand it. Suppose I write a novel. If the title is: "Beneath Waves", you, English speaking ppl will expect a book about a journey around the world inside a sub. If "Beneath The Waves" - about falling into the Chunnel, right outside Dover, right? :-D
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#6 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 08:50:28 (son değiştirilme 29 Eki 2019, 08:54:25 kim tarafından: Piotr Noworyta)
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Or, if it's the former, will you expect the author to be Polish? :-)
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#7 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 09:33:45
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Or (and I now think that's probably the best answer) - the "Beneath Waves" title I'd use, if it was a story about falling asleep, an suddenly finding myself (in a dream) surrounded by water?
Sorry I dwell so much on this minor problem, but I remember how surprised I was, when I was told my students had hard time understanding chemistry lesson, because their TA kept "making an error" instead of "making a mistake" :)
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#8 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 09:56:57
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As explanations go, this may be unhelpful. ;p
I find "beneath waves" peculiarly structured, even if grammatically correct. It seems "beneath those/these waves" (a plural article, not a singular) would be more appropriate grammar, but I've never heard or seen it used.
It may be a function of the difference between formal & informal (conversational) usage.
The issue of scansion (to fit the meter of the lyric) is the most probable reason. ;p (Recall Shakespeare: "The evil that men do lives after them/The good is oft interred with their bones." Most people, & many actors, will say "in terd", not "in tare ed", which Shakespeare's actors would have, & which is correct for the meter. At the time written, if he'd meant "in terd", it would have been written "inter'd". {And now I'm showing off. ;p })
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#9 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 11:04:44
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Actually, I find it very helpful. Thanks, Lorne!
Combined with the replies before, the point is - "beneath the waves", the only one to ever use, period. :)
I consider the issue closed, but I encourage all those with other English language questions to post theim here. All of us, non native speakers, might find it helpful, so it's better, I think, to keep it in one place.
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#10 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 17:49:41
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You're on your own with "Octopus's Garden."
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#11 Yayınlanma zamanı: 29 Eki 2019, 20:11:19
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lol
I think I'll just try to avoid entering the labirynths of any song lyrics in future.
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#12 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 00:50:07
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Quote ( Lorne Taylor @ October 29th 2019,09:56:57 ) I find "beneath waves" peculiarly structured, even if grammatically correct. It seems "beneath those/these waves" (a plural article, not a singular) would be more appropriate grammar, but I've never heard or seen it used.
This.
From looking into it, when beneath is used as a preposition it always takes an article or a possessive pronoun:
"beneath the waves"
"beneath a mountain"
"beneath your skirt" :P
I can't think of or find a use of beneath (as a preposition) that doesn't include one of these three. Though confusingly you can use it as an adverb e.g. "what lies beneath" - but that's a whole different kettle of fish that we shouldn't dig beneath...
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#13 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 03:47:20
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Remember, that songs aren't made to be grammar-friendly. Instead, they are made to fit a "sound structure". Using your example and twisting it a bit
"In our yellow submarine
We lived with the waves beneath"
Could be:
"With the waves beneath
we lived in our yellow submarine"
Both are correct and acceptable in a sound structure that justifies them. In the case of that specific lyrics...
"In the town where I was born
Lived a man who sailed to sea
And he told us of his life
In the land of submarines
So we sailed up to the sun
'Til we found a sea of green
And we lived beneath the waves
In our yellow submarine"
...that's the sound structure in bold it repeats the sound every 4 frases. At some point, in a song, words must follow a certain rule of repeating sounds to create a Chorus or Structure that's appealing to your brain. Musicians study that in University, scales, structures, etc. Just like a Physicis studies the periodic table or a a Priest studies Teology to learn how to "control" the sheeps
For example, Kurt Cobain from Nirvana was well known for his strange and meaninfull lyrics, however, himself constantly told that they were without meaning, that he wrote alot of "constructions" to fit in a "sound structure". Many times making strange lyrics like in In Utero's Hearth-Shaped Box:
She eyes me like a Pisces when I am weak
I've been locked inside your heart-shaped box for weeks
I've been drawn into your magnet tar pit trap
I wish I could eat your cancer when you turn black
To a musician, what really matters is the sound ending that shows in bold (I hope, I suck at bb code right now).
My point is, although listening to music helps alot to learn a language, one can never trust the grammar to be correct or usual, since the lyrics itself serves the purpose to follow the melody, and not a straight grammar line as a book must follow.
Poetry is another example of that. Poetry also isn't obliged to follow grammar rules, but instead, a certain "sound structure" characteristic of Poetry.
Hope it helped. I'm not English native by any means and by coincidence, I also started to learn English at a very young age by listening and singing to the Beatles songs.
Have fun!
;)
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#14 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 07:44:27
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Thanks, Jonathan. Looks like beneath is not going confuse anyone in GPRO anymore :).
And thanks Pedro. 100% agreed, although in this case it turned out "beneath waves", which would break the rhythm you're talking about, is not to be used, ever, in songs or in the street talk (see posts above).
Too bad, because I was gonna present the Beatles with the solution - replace "the" with "blue". Not a perfect fit, "green" would be better based on colour assignment throughout the text, but "beneath blue waves" sounds much more, how to say it, melodical, than "beneath green waves". So disappointing to learn that "the" is perfectly in place ,-)
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#15 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 11:14:08
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Hmm, but that might be a different thing. I don't think "beneath blue waves" sounds nearly as wrong as "beneath waves" - but I'm no native speaker.
That construction reminds me of The Who's song, Behind Blue Eyes. No article needed there either. But maybe for some unknown reason there are different rules for "behind" and "beneath". For example, I think you can say "the killer was put behind bars" (in jail) without any article, which is not possible with "beneath" according to Jon.
Articles are very difficult to cast in rules. I am lucky because my language is very closely related to English. I can imagine it's hard to master when your native language doesn't even have articles at all, like Polish.
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#16 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 11:37:13
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Yes, the lack of articles does make things simpler. But the price for this is substantial - "sz", "ś", "rz", that's just the sample of what awaits a Polish language student :)
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#17 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 11:43:14 (son değiştirilme 30 Eki 2019, 11:43:57 kim tarafından: Jasper Coosemans)
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I could make a good case that Polish spelling and pronunciation is easier than English. When I read a Polish word I don't know, I can pronounce it correctly at the first attempt because the rules are clear and unambiguous. But when you encounter a new English word, you often need to get a native speaker to say it out loud because there simply is no way to know.
(Unfortunately I fail at Polish anyway because I just can't connect with the vocabulary which is too different from any other languages I know)
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#18 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 11:44:55
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Quote ( Jonathan Beagles @ October 30th 2019,00:50:07 ) I can't think of or find a use of beneath (as a preposition) that doesn't include one of these three.
Then you're beneath contempt =]
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#19 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 11:50:15
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Quote ( Piotr Noworyta @ October 29th 2019,07:45:12 ) The new thread, hoping it'll help more than just me to meet the "You may speak English only in the forum" requirement better ,-)
I've been wondering about:
"So we lived beneath _the_ waves
In our yellow submarine"
I am not sure about the (marked with underscores) "the" article above. Intuitively I'd indeed use it, but when I try to understand it based on the grammatical rules, I can't find the explanation why not just "beneath waves".
Anyone can help?
I think this is what you are asking... hopefully it helps!
"The" is known as a definite article ("a" or "an" would be an indefinite article). The waves are a specified noun, because the people in the submarine (the narrator of the song) know which waves they are beneath. This means the noun is a definite and "known" noun.
A better example would be a piece of fruit, as it is easier to understand:
"Thank you for the apple you gave me."
"Do you have an apple?"
"Here is the orange I found."
"Can you find me an orange?"
For the use of "the" the noun is a specific apple or orange. For the use of "a" or "an" it is for an apple or orange that we haven't met yet.
Waves is more difficult to understand or provide an example for, because there are other rules for what word we would use for an indefinite article.
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#20 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 12:12:03
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Quote ( Brad Marshall @ October 29th 2019,17:49:41 ) You're on your own with "Octopus's Garden."
Ah, but music, like poetry, isn't bound by the same rules as even colloquial usage. "Jabberwocky" is a prime example.
High literature may not be, either, if Joyce's _Ulysses_ is any guide.
(For the record, I've never read either. ;p )
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#21 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 12:46:11 (son değiştirilme 30 Eki 2019, 12:46:21 kim tarafından: Josh Clark)
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The car drives on the road
The cars drive on the roads
Cars drive on roads
I think the use of "the" before a plural of a noun feels like it reduces the generalised feel. Particularly in the example above. I'm sure all could be grammatically correct in the same scenario but use (or "the use"...) of one would be far more common than the other.
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#22 Yayınlanma zamanı: 30 Eki 2019, 12:49:33 (son değiştirilme 30 Eki 2019, 12:52:42 kim tarafından: Piotr Noworyta)
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@Cicero: Thanks :) Actually, I think (although it would be safer to say - I hope :) ) I usually don't have problems identifying the right article to use. Like I had said a few posts above, even in the specific case of "beneath the waves" I use the article "the" intuitively.
The problem I had in this case, once I started analyzing it, was identifying if these waves are, or are not specific.
I mean, if I said the same phrase in my language, the meaning would be "some waves, somewhere", and actually the best translation back to English would be: "we sail under the surface of water". To make them specific, I'd have to add something specific, eg "on the Atlantic Ocean", or indirectly refer to something that had been said earlier. And I think in this sense it's the same, as in your examples with an apple/the apple.
So, exactly as you, and others above have said, "beneath" is a little harder to put precisely in some grammatical rule. I'll give you the example from a few posts above. Suppose I write a novel. The story is, I fell asleep and in my dream I am suddenly surrounded by water. I don't know where this water came from. I'm not sure if there actually are any waves because all I see around me is water. If it's water :) "Beneath Waves"? Or still "Beneath The Waves"? Based on all the input above, I know I'd now use the latter (don't worry, I'm not going to write that novel and blame it on you guys :-D )
But regardless what's the correct answer, I think I'll skip my inner need to understand it, and just stick to "beneath the water" whenever I have to use it.
ps. In the worst case scenario, I'll try the workarounds. The militiaman is called to the accident. He begins to write the report, "The body was found lying ...". He realizes he doesn't know what's the proper spelling of "a sidewalk" in Polish. He pushes the body from the sidewalk onto the road, "... on the road" :-D
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#23 Yayınlanma zamanı: 31 Eki 2019, 00:31:26
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Quote ( Max Watson @ October 30th 2019,11:44:55 ) Then you're beneath contempt =]
*Claps*
Interesting - that only works because you aren't physically beneath the contempt. Having looked at this a little more:
preposition
1.
extending or directly underneath.
"a 2.5-mile tunnel beneath the Alps"
2.
at a lower level or layer than.
"beneath this floor there's a cellar"
My examples were using the former version (i.e. beneath meaning directly underneath something), whereas your example is suggesting being at a lower level than (albeit not in a physical sense)...so maybe there's also a difference there in the prepositional usage...!
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#24 Yayınlanma zamanı: 24 Şub 2020, 14:56:55
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Thanks for all the replies, above. I've got a new question, and once again it's the text in a song...
"He come to fetch me to see what they done"
( Sting, I Hung My Head, Mercury Falling )
This one does not qualify as 101, I'm afraid, but I've decided starting a new topic would be a worse option.
Question: What's the meaning of the sentence in double quotes, literally?
Of course I do realize that it might not be a grammatically correct phrase, but my question is not about grammar, but about the meaning. He's come to let me know what they will have done? He's come to repay me AND to see what they have done?
Perfect understanding of this particular phrase is not necessary to grasp the whole lyrics of the song (one of my favourite songtexts of all time!), even looking deeper than it may first appear, but, like I said, it's my favourite song so I'd be really grateful if someone with good command in English, and some feel for lyrics, would try to help me with that "fetch" phrase above :)
Thanks in advance
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#25 Yayınlanma zamanı: 24 Şub 2020, 15:09:58
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Not a native speaker myself, so i'm not 200% sure here:
The song is about a guy that accidentally shoots someone. The whole "He (has) come to fetch me" line relates to facing death.
"He" (the lone rider that was shot, or his ghost/spirit i guess) comes back to see what they (the judge and sheriff i reckon) had done, and to fetch him (pick him up) so they'll ride together "till kingdom come" (forever, which is likely death)
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#26 Yayınlanma zamanı: 24 Şub 2020, 15:37:04
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Makes sense! Should've thought of that explanation myself, but I guess I got confused because "fetching" and "riding together" are separated with "seeing what they'd done" :) But that's the beauty of songtexts being songtexts ;-)
Thanks a lot, Miel!
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#27 Yayınlanma zamanı: 25 Şub 2020, 16:42:06
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